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Milkman · 18-03-2007, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkkstoneman

Milkman...I paid into social security at the maximum rate every year for 49 years...and I always griped about it and how I would never get my money back...Well, I am now drawing my SS benefits that I earned and paid for over the past 49 years..And I expect to get my full benefits for the rest of my life...

Please get out your calculator and tell me what return you are getting.

You....are on.....welfare.

Shame on you.

You didn't invest on your own....and you suck off of the taxpayer.

Shame....on....you.

Boon Mee · 19-03-2007, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milkman

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkkstoneman

Milkman...I paid into social security at the maximum rate every year for 49 years...and I always griped about it and how I would never get my money back...Well, I am now drawing my SS benefits that I earned and paid for over the past 49 years..And I expect to get my full benefits for the rest of my life...

Please get out your calculator and tell me what return you are getting.

You....are on.....welfare.

Shame on you.

You didn't invest on your own....and you suck off of the taxpayer.

Shame....on....you.

There's no shame on bkkstoneman - he had no choice but to pay into SS at full-whack. Don['t get your drift there, Milkman. It's the LAW you have to pay into it even if you're working overseas for a US based company headquartered in the US and elsewhere like the Cayman's etc...

man with no head · 19-03-2007, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackgang

Quote:

Originally Posted by floorpotato

If the 15% deducted for Social Security was put into individual retirement accounts of U.S. Treasury bonds, a lot fewer of the elderly would be pushed into poverty in the coming decades. Currently, Social Security is a regressive tax (income over $97,000 a year is not taxed) for a welfare system that is insufficient for the elderly and abused by many of those drawing disability checks under the SSI program. The Republican suggestion of individual stock accounts is risky and intended to give their brokerage house buddies billions in management fees. Besides, the stock market has shown that it can decline for 10-20 years at a time. That is not security. Converting Social Security into individual U.S. Treasury bond accounts might also give Americans a very real stake in their own currency so that maybe they wouldn't tolerate government waste. Plus, it's fair. People would keep their hard-earned money and even pass it on through inheritance.

Yes, It is abused by some and also is not abused by all, and if Shirtsak broke his back now and could no longer work I don't think he would bitch about it being paid to him.
Income over a certain amount is not taxed but it is taxed on all wages earned up to a cutoff point, that is the max donations required per year, When I worked it was the same as it was last year, But I always made good money and if I just worked for 1 employer they would cut it off at [in 1965 it was $4800.00] for some reason I remember the cutoff because I hit it in march, and if you worked for more than one guy then they would take it up to the cutoff no matter how many you worked for and made that amount, then when you filed for your income tax they would reimburse you what ever you had over paid for the year..

SURASAK, it is not 15% of all earnings, it is 15% of wages earned up to $ 97.000 a year now and none over that point, even if paid in they will refund at income tax time if overpaid.
If you were not an underachiever and made good money each year you would know that.
And as far as being self sufficient and depositing your own money for your self if not taxed, you would not deposit that money but would piss it off and then when you were old and could not work my grandkids would be carrying your ass or you would starve.

If you are so against it then why not raise hell with your elected officials and make them stop giving SSI and SSA to Illegal aliens that have never paid in and some have taken what SSA that they get that they did not pay into and run back to Mexico and spend the money there.but just remember that they do not take 15% from everyone total income, only take it from people that work at 7-11 and other underachievers that do not make over $97,000 a year...

Do you know why the cut-off is $97,000? Do you think it's fair that the government steals almost $14,000 of your wages in order to give it to someone else?

Assuming that a person makes $100,000 per year (more than double the national average, mind you, so calling anyone who makes less than that an underachiever is insulting a majority of the population) that means in an average working lifetime said person has $500,000 stolen from them. At current retirement the max. 'benefit' (I love using such a word....as if getting your own money back is a 'benefit?') is about $2600 I believe.

Now, that amounts to about $32,000 per year. At that rate you would have to live almost 16 additional years past retirement of age 67 just to 'earn' your own principal back. That puts you well past the average age of death in the United States.

Now, if you could take the same $14,000 per year and invest it with a simple rate of 5% return per year (a 60 month maturity IRA can return you 5.55% per year)? You'd have $1.5 million at retirement and wouldn't have to wait to use it (plus, if you had any emergencies during that working career you'd have the money instantly available). With SS that money is stolen and gone until you retire, and, even then you will never get back what is rightfully yours. Even if you 'lost' 33% to capital gains on the basis of investing your own money you'd still end up with more money than if you 'gave' it to the government through the current ponzi scheme.

Because the government steals your money to give to another retiree the person paying the maximum amount into SS loses almost $1 million when comparing his retirement 'benefit' to what he really could have at the same age.

How any scumbag can defend Social Security is beyond me.

blackgang · 19-03-2007, 08:54 AM

Tell us just how much every month you put into your personal IRA or bonds market account, now don't fudge and say "OH I average about" that ain't shit, just how much each month.

Even an under achiever should have bugeted a set amount if he really believes what you have said.

OH I see, you have had an "Emergency" and had the money instantly available" and now you have none in savings..
Standard practice for under achievers..

Boon Mee · 19-03-2007, 09:16 AM

I put in the max to my 401(K).
Best way to reduce your bottom line when April 15th comes around.

Wallace · 19-03-2007, 11:35 AM

Milkman - whilst there may be benefits sometimes in handing your hard-earned money over to a private company to invest for you, there is also absolutely NO GUARANTEE that investing privately will give you your money. The endowment policy fiasco in the UK is a perfect example of a situation in which people were told to pay interest only mortgages, while putting extra money into a private savings account. Those accounts are now paying FAR LESS than people expected because of the fluctuations in the money markets. Giving your money to others to invest for you may actually mean you end up with nothing. As I've said before, just look at Enron and Maxwell. Pensions, benefits, the lot, all gone.

Milkman · 19-03-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallace

Milkman - whilst there may be benefits sometimes in handing your hard-earned money over to a private company to invest for you, there is also absolutely NO GUARANTEE that investing privately will give you your money. The endowment policy fiasco in the UK is a perfect example of a situation in which people were told to pay interest only mortgages, while putting extra money into a private savings account. Those accounts are now paying FAR LESS than people expected because of the fluctuations in the money markets. Giving your money to others to invest for you may actually mean you end up with nothing. As I've said before, just look at Enron and Maxwell. Pensions, benefits, the lot, all gone.

Wallace, great points, and I totally agree.

I have done the financial calculation for Roth IRAs, 401K, and non-tax exempt funds, compount interest, bonds, etc.

Your point is related to this topic.

And I think this is drawing strong responses from many of us because SS have been screwed by up our politicians.

Many of us will come up very short, including me.

No, I don't have much faith in private investing, anymore, but I do max out my ROTH IRA every year. It's better than nothing.

A financial calculator: Choose a Benefit Calculator

lom · 19-03-2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milkman

Many of us will come up very short, including me.

That has been said by people for 30 years now but they seem to shut up when they reach their retirement age..
And you are speaking about losses that you expect , but have yet to see.

Wallace is spot on with his NO GUARANTEE point, the retirement money is too important to gamble with on a private market. In the end it will be the government who has to take care of you if you lose - there is no civilized country in the world that would let their citizens starve .

So the money you pay is not only an insurance for you but an insurance for your country that they will not have to cover your living when retired.
Hence, it is mandatory and should be so.

Milkman · 19-03-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milkman

Many of us will come up very short, including me.

That has been said by people for 30 years now but they seem to shut up when they reach their retirement age..
And you are speaking about losses that you expect , but have yet to see.

You are correct lom. We (or I) have yet to see. The medical costs will be wiping a lot of life savings and 401ks out, IMO.

I do my calculation based upon the assumption that the rate of inflation will remain at about 3% and I shoot for annualized returns of 5% over the rate of inflation, so assume an average of 8%.

I should not assume the interest rate and rate of return, but use these numbers as a peg, and they can be changed.

Quote:

Wallace is spot on with his NO GUARANTEE point, the retirement money is too important to gamble with on a private market.

But this is exactly what the U.S. government is doing: 401Ks, IRAs.

Quote:

In the end it will be the government who has to take care of you if you lose

The government covers a portion, which is fair. And I think it's up to the individual to plan and invest. If people don't, tough luck.

Quote:

there is no civilized country in the world that would let their citizens starve.

Agree.

And no one starves.

But many will be working until they are too old to work.

For some it will be in their early 70s. Others, later.

Quote:

So the money you pay is not only an insurance for you but an insurance for your country that they will not have to cover your living when retired.

Agree, but the U.S. does not not have this.

Quote:

Hence, it is mandatory and should be so.

They need to put the money aside in individual accounts. Perhaps like Super-Annu in Oz, although I'm not familiar with the system.

Regardless, the government has completly failed with SS.

Greenspan and Bernanke have long given us the warnings.

Here is a financial investing calculator link. The one in my above post was not the one I wanted to use.

This is the one I wanted to post: Bankrate.com savings goal calculator -- Saving for the future

blackgang · 19-03-2007, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Do you know why the cut-off is $97,000? Do you think it's fair that the government steals almost $14,000 of your wages in order to give it to someone else?

Assuming that a person makes $100,000 per year (more than double the national average, mind you, so calling anyone who makes less than that an underachiever is insulting a majority of the population) that means in an average working lifetime said person has $500,000 stolen from them

OK SURASAK, if I have paid in the amount as you say, then they are not taking money from someone else and giving it to me, and I had earned MAX long before I was retirement age and anything I earned after that date did not mean one cent more on my payback.
I actually retired in 1990 and just cruised around and was drawing my union pensions already,
And I can't help it if there are so many underachievers out there making less than the cutoff max SSA rate of deposits, if they are insulted I can't help that.

OH and by the way, I know that this will piss you off when ever you think about it and get in your Geo Prism in the snow,, My wife went down last week and paid 1.2 mil. for a new Toyota 4x4 diesel torbo "fortuner", you would call it a "Forrunner".. But some just like to drive a SUV.

man with no head · 19-03-2007, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallace

Milkman - whilst there may be benefits sometimes in handing your hard-earned money over to a private company to invest for you, there is also absolutely NO GUARANTEE that investing privately will give you your money. The endowment policy fiasco in the UK is a perfect example of a situation in which people were told to pay interest only mortgages, while putting extra money into a private savings account. Those accounts are now paying FAR LESS than people expected because of the fluctuations in the money markets. Giving your money to others to invest for you may actually mean you end up with nothing. As I've said before, just look at Enron and Maxwell. Pensions, benefits, the lot, all gone.

But a simple IRA will give back more than any government funded pyramid scheme could ever dream of.

Why is it that we are supposed to trust politicians with our money but not ourselves?

Milkman · 19-03-2007, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surasak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wallace

Milkman - whilst there may be benefits sometimes in handing your hard-earned money over to a private company to invest for you, there is also absolutely NO GUARANTEE that investing privately will give you your money. The endowment policy fiasco in the UK is a perfect example of a situation in which people were told to pay interest only mortgages, while putting extra money into a private savings account. Those accounts are now paying FAR LESS than people expected because of the fluctuations in the money markets. Giving your money to others to invest for you may actually mean you end up with nothing. As I've said before, just look at Enron and Maxwell. Pensions, benefits, the lot, all gone.

But a simple IRA will give back more than any government funded pyramid scheme could ever dream of.

Why is it that we are supposed to trust politicians with our money but not ourselves?

I would rather have control myself.

Some noted that if we are left to our own devices with the 15% that we would spend it, or waste it.

Bullsh*t.

And people that do not save a minimum of 20% of the gross do NOT deserve any assistance from the government.

The typical American line is that Americans cannot save.

Most can't.

Because they are myopic, ignorant, selfish, and suffers from "now-nowism."

If someone cannot get better returns than SS over a period of say, 40 years of investing, they are a moron.

man with no head · 19-03-2007, 09:41 PM

Exactly. At least with my own retirement account (even a simple IRA) I can withdraw money if I ever need it...and my family can inherit it if I pass away.

My Socialist Security contributions are doing nothing other than allowing scum like Backstabber to make fraudulent claims about how great the program is going to be for me in the future.

Milkman · 19-03-2007, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surasak

Exactly. At least with my own retirement account (even a simple IRA) I can withdraw money if I ever need it...and my family can inherit it if I pass away.

Exactly!

Let's say I die (young or old).

I'd rather be able to have the money put in a trust for my grand-kids education, for example.

With Socialist Security you get 0.

blackgang · 20-03-2007, 12:20 AM

But MM if it is left to shitsak from the way he talks and does he will piss it off, just read what he always posts,,

Quote:

At least with my own retirement account (even a simple IRA) I can withdraw money if I ever need it

Upper most in his mind is drawing that money out, and has most likely already done that everytime he gets over $100.. HA

So you would be be supporting him for one..

Milkman · 20-03-2007, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackgang

But MM if it is left to shitsak from the way he talks and does he will piss it off, just read what he always posts,,

Quote:

At least with my own retirement account (even a simple IRA) I can withdraw money if I ever need it

Upper most in his mind is drawing that money out, and has most likely already done that everytime he gets over $100.. HA

So you would be be supporting him for one..

No I would NOT be supporting him. Not at all.

I think a lot of the issue BG, is choice.

Now don't get me wrong.

I do think you deserve your SS.

You paid into it. For decades.

But the what I see at my age (37) is the government taking a huge portion of my income, spending it, or putting it who knows where, and then:

telling me when I have a right to collect!!

The government is taking my money and also making the rules for me!!

You can take IRA money out for 1) buying a first home and 2) education

without penalty.

The bottom line is: it YOUR money.

And YOU should be able to do what you want with it.

19-03-2007, 08:54 AM	#24 (permalink)
blackgang Senior Member Last Online: Yesterday 08:57 PM Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Phetchabun city Posts: 6,961	Tell us just how much every month you put into your personal IRA or bonds market account, now don't fudge and say "OH I average about" that ain't shit, just how much each month. Even an under achiever should have bugeted a set amount if he really believes what you have said. OH I see, you have had an "Emergency" and had the money instantly available" and now you have none in savings.. Standard practice for under achievers.. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Political Correctness: A doctrine, fosteredby a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

19-03-2007, 11:35 AM	#26 (permalink)
Wallace Wat Chalong Last Online: 04-09-2007 11:42 AM Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Q Continuum Posts: 870	Milkman - whilst there may be benefits sometimes in handing your hard-earned money over to a private company to invest for you, there is also absolutely NO GUARANTEE that investing privately will give you your money. The endowment policy fiasco in the UK is a perfect example of a situation in which people were told to pay interest only mortgages, while putting extra money into a private savings account. Those accounts are now paying FAR LESS than people expected because of the fluctuations in the money markets. Giving your money to others to invest for you may actually mean you end up with nothing. As I've said before, just look at Enron and Maxwell. Pensions, benefits, the lot, all gone. __________________ The truth is out there, but then I'm stuck in here.

19-03-2007, 09:16 AM	#25 (permalink)
Boon Mee Senior Member Last Online: Yesterday 06:47 PM Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 9,820	I put in the max to my 401(K). Best way to reduce your bottom line when April 15th comes around.

19-03-2007, 09:41 PM	#33 (permalink)
man with no head Somewhere Travelling Last Online: 11-08-2007 07:39 PM Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,424	Exactly. At least with my own retirement account (even a simple IRA) I can withdraw money if I ever need it...and my family can inherit it if I pass away. My Socialist Security contributions are doing nothing other than allowing scum like Backstabber to make fraudulent claims about how great the program is going to be for me in the future.

20-03-2007, 12:49 AM	#37 (permalink)
blackgang Senior Member Last Online: Yesterday 08:57 PM Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Phetchabun city Posts: 6,961