Do Thais have a communication problem ?

**Thormaturge** · 06-01-2008, 10:15 AM

Does anyone here know how to differentiate between a lemon and a lime without engaging in a five minute conversation?

**Butterfly** · 06-01-2008, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by DrAndy

I was very pleased with the guy that helps me on the rice farm, he acts smart, thinks about things and is generally a good worker. I found out that he had been working in Saudi for four years, which seems make a big difference...or maybe he was always like he is?

I had the same experience with Thai that used to work overseas. They really are different. Which proves my point that they aren't "inherently" stupid or void of logic, it's just than their "limited" communication skills seriously impair their thinking and their ability to work and function normally in a modern society. All this wouldn't be a problem if we were still in the Middle Age, and that's exactly the problem, Thais are currently communicating and thinking in Middle Age terms.

If they want to become a modern society, they should start communicating in Thai more often. This process would create dynamics in their thinking, new Thai words would be created (not the English copy/paste we often see), and it would change the way they interact with each others. It would also mean being less polite, as silence is often see here as a sign of politeness.

**tristram** · 06-01-2008, 10:27 AM

I cant speak thai, but my wife seems very clever, she is chinese though, i except that makes a difference.

**stroller** · 06-01-2008, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by DrAndy

but I don't understand your point about polite interaction; it seems to me that Thais are incredibly polite, not naive or uneducated at all in their interaction.

I meant that farangs come across as impolite to Thais.

Originally Posted by Thormaturge

Does anyone here know how to differentiate between a lemon and a lime without engaging in a five minute conversation?

Do they have lemons in Thailand?
Curious that, when I lived in South-Yorks, I asked around in the vege shops for an avocado and got a rather startled "you what, luv?" in response, until a shop owner pulled my aside and explained they got avocados in their Sheffield shop, but around here nobody would know what to do with them.
True story, late 80s.

**Thormaturge** · 06-01-2008, 10:33 AM

^
They have lemons in Emporium and they look like this:

Surely there has to be a word that doesn't also mean THIS:

**NickA** · 06-01-2008, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by stroller

I meant that farangs come across as impolite to Thais.

Certainly true. I notice that Thais tend to get on better with farangs who have a reserved/English personality rather than an outgoing/American personality. I don't know if this is because the Thais cannot adapt to the Americans or the Americans cannot adapt to the Thai culture, but I tend to think it is the second. Maybe i just don't know the right Americans.

**NickA** · 06-01-2008, 10:36 AM

^^Yes, they have Papayas, Rambutang, mangosteen et al in shops in England, but I doubt anyone knows what they are called.

**Little Chuchok** · 06-01-2008, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by DrAndy

but I don't understand your point about polite interaction; it seems to me that Thais are incredibly polite, not naive or uneducated at all in their interaction.

I meant that farangs come across as impolite to Thais.

Farang come across as impolite in most Asian cultures...well in business anyway.

The Nips are bloody polite,yet they seem to communicate well.

**somnomna** · 06-01-2008, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by friscofrankie

I find one of the most frustrating things in dealing with Thais is the commonly accepted attitude that we don;t know how to find our ass with both hands because we are farang. They just don't seem to understand that we have been doing the same things they do, on a daily basis, differently.

Why the fuck can't they pay attention see that we do get things accomplished, albeit with different processes?

are you being sarcastic?...Surely the same would apply to us would it not?

**Norton** · 06-01-2008, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Thormaturge

Does anyone here know how to differentiate between a lemon and a lime without engaging in a five minute conversation?

má-naao kĭeow or just má-naao - Lime
má-naao lĕuang - Lemon

Try this. Should cut the conversation to less than 3 minutes assuming you are talking with someone that has ever seen a lemon.

**Marmite the Dog** · 06-01-2008, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

The Nips are bloody polite,yet they seem to communicate well.

I'd have to disagree with that statement, at least historically.

The Japanese had a dreadful reputation in business as they were so convoluted in their discussions and could never give a straight answer to anything. I think that in more recent times, business has become king and they've adapted to working in a world market, which is why they are up there with the best.

I have also noticed that the Japanese really didn't meet my expectations of them, but I suppose that by leaving my bowler hat and umbrella at home, I didn't meet theirs either.

**Little Chuchok** · 06-01-2008, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

The Nips are bloody polite,yet they seem to communicate well.

I'd have to disagree with that statement, at least historically.

The Japanese had a dreadful reputation in business as they were so convoluted in their discussions and could never give a straight answer to anything. I think that in more recent times, business has become king and they've adapted to working in a world market, which is why they are up there with the best.

I have also noticed that the Japanese really didn't meet my expectations of them, but I suppose that by leaving my bowler hat and umbrella at home, I didn't meet theirs either.

They communicate in their own way and a straight answer to them might still be going around the round-about a few times...even today.Why do you think that many foreigners working there get taught how to interpret discussions.

They are still polite...even when they are telling you to fcuk off.

**Butterfly** · 06-01-2008, 12:26 PM

^ agree they are polite by western standard, but still impolite by Thai standard

**Texpat** · 06-01-2008, 12:32 PM

I can tell a big difference between Thais who've lived in the village all their lives and those who have been abroad. They seem to think differently and respond to questions (in both Thai and English) more appropriately. One of my wife's friend has a husband who spent a few years in Bahrain doing construction. Now he's a barber. He actually has the ability to "think ahead" and "feel" where the conversation is going. This ability to anticipate is lost on most Thais, including his wife, who hasn't been out of Nong Khai, ever.

If you ask her for salt, she'll have the same vacant, perplexed look 30 seconds later when you ask for pepper too. Aside from my wife, I've met very few Thais that are capable of anticipating in a conversation, even contributing. But I live in the jungle.

This is also a problem as I'm learning Thai, too. If for example I've forgotten how to say manao -- and call it manaui. They'll be completely lost, no problem. I'll give descriptive clues like polomai, sii kiew, priew. Nothing, they just don't seem able to map together clues like westerners can. When we finally come to the elusive word -- manao, (usually when I can consult my wife) I have a feeling like you are a stupid cnut. They look at me like, why didn't you just say manao? Very unforgiving sometimes, even when you merely apply the incorrect tone.

**Texpat** · 06-01-2008, 12:33 PM

Japs can't say "no."

They'll talk/walk around the world to avoid it.

Also the English word for "different" and "wrong," is the same: chigaimasu

**Butterfly** · 06-01-2008, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

If you ask her for salt, she'll have the same vacant, perplexed look 30 seconds later when you ask for pepper too.

very unPC, but definitely right on

**Thormaturge** · 06-01-2008, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

I can tell a big difference between Thais who've lived in the village all their lives and those who have been abroad.

Same for all countries though. Living in Hicksville limits a person's perspective on life.

**Norton** · 06-01-2008, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

Japs can't say "no." They'll talk/walk around the world to avoid it.

Can't be bothered to find specific name but one of Sony's most successful presidents wrote a book on this very subject. A good read for folks wanting to do business in Japan.

**Texpat** · 06-01-2008, 01:14 PM

Akio Morita, founder of Sony. I have it in my hands now. (well I put it down to type that)

**Norton** · 06-01-2008, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

Akio Morita. I have it in my hands now. (well I put it down to type that)

That's the guy. Thanks!

**Frankenstein** · 06-01-2008, 02:03 PM

good points ButtF, language does help make a civilisation. Your last point is interesting, as it does show that Thais can understand and think logically etc. I reckon living in another country and learning another language could broadly be classed as education.

as Ratchaburi said above

I think some of these points are invalid if we look deeper into the issue. The implication of Butterfly's statements seem to suggest languages are static in structure and some languages can convey complex thought while others can't, because the languages themselves are unfit for the purpose.

I disagree with this - every single language adapts with its users to fit the reality around them.

If you look at the structure of Chinese, it is in many ways not that different from Thai. The tone features, the monosyllabic nature of most words, the focus on verbs rather than nouns, the lack of inclinations for plural and time aspects.

Yet, the Chinese civilization was in many ways superior to European civilization up until the era of industrialization and mass production which propelled some European states into world dominating powers and dragged the rest along with them.

The main factor for the early advanced Chinese civilization can be discussed, but I believe it was partly due to their early reliance on the written language, and the emphasis on selective education to produce an elite class of relatively highly educated officials and scholars.

(Unfortunately, they managed to exterminate much of their intellectual heritage during the cultural revolution, but they seem to have recovered fairly ok anyways; the ruling class still appears to remember and apply the lessons learned from the rise and fall of older dynasties.)

Language itself has advanced with people's thought processes - the more evolved people are mentally, and the more complex the reality they experience around them, the more they are in need of a tool to navigate this reality - so they use the language to its limits, and push it further.

I don't know if you realize that the bulk of people living in France before the Roman empire spoke mostly Germanic and Celtic languages. Imagine the massive borrowing of Latin words that must have caused the gradual eradication of these languages and led to creating French as we know it today - a Romance language, Latin based.

When somebody intelligent enough to formulate highly abstract and complex ideas comes into this world - being both a product of his/her genes, and his her upbringing and environment, he or she will bend language and extend it in order to explain these things. If the starting language has a limited vocabulary, the genius will be able to either explain sufficiently with existing vocabulary, or invent new words to define those new ideas or concepts if there is a need.

If you take a closer look at the works of most philosophers, for example Wittgenstein, you will see that they invented many new words, or rigidly redefined the meanings of existing words, in order to be as clear as possible about what they were trying to say - by necessity this means that their texts are quite difficult to penetrate, unless you learn the definitions for the terms they use, before being able to understand what they are trying to say.

The thoughts of these philosophers will expand your mind - not only because they show a new angle on things, but also because the study of them forces you to concentrate your mental skills. This mind expansion is very difficult to achieve without a rigidly defined terminological system.

The philosophers realized this - the smarter ones could see that all languages, German or French being no exceptions, carry a large potential for misunderstandings, as the associations any individual will experience upon reading or hearing a word, often differ from the associations of another individual. Furthermore, people tend to react more to body language and tone of voice/writing style, than they do to the actual words being said.

Anyways, with mass education of better quality, where inquisitiveness is encouraged instead of punished, you will see some of these aspects change.

Thais educated abroad generally come from families with strong studying traditions. They are born into a type of environment that already differs from that of low-skilled workers. The schools they go to are often international schools with less emphasis on nationalist propaganda, overall better teachers and more room to develop, network and get ahead.

Of course they will be different.

**Frankenstein** · 06-01-2008, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by NickA

Originally Posted by stroller

I meant that farangs come across as impolite to Thais.

Certainly true. I notice that Thais tend to get on better with farangs who have a reserved/English personality rather than an outgoing/American personality. I don't know if this is because the Thais cannot adapt to the Americans or the Americans cannot adapt to the Thai culture, but I tend to think it is the second. Maybe i just don't know the right Americans.

My guess is that you bond better with those Thais, whereas the Americans find they bond with other Thais, better suited to their more direct, open and loud style of interaction?

**mellow** · 06-01-2008, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

Yes, Thai culture is different from what you were brought up with.

Better learn about it, or spend the rest of your stay being a miserable twat and feeling superior - oh, hang on, I guess that's exactly what some have come here for.

Thank you oh wise one.

**Butterfly** · 06-01-2008, 02:26 PM

excellent points Frank, and I mostly agree with those also, will need to answer more precisly on those points later,

**Norton** · 06-01-2008, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

I think some of these points are invalid if we look deeper into the issue. The implication of Butterfly's statements seem to suggest languages are static in structure and some languages can convey complex thought while others can't, because the languages themselves are unfit for the purpose. I disagree with this - every single language adapts with its users to fit the reality around them.

Good post. If I may add, even Thai has adapted particularity in the area of science and technology. Words which did not exist in the language have been incorporated. Wittiyu (wireless) for radio is but one of many that come to mind.

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