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  1. #176
    fcuked off SKkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamPikToot View Post
    starting such a divisive one sided thread on an erstwhile peaceful sub-forum
    Probably better suited for Speakers. btw...The OP article author is not alone in his thoughts on Churchill.


    The beginning of the Richard Seymour article (The Real Winston Churchill), I posted earlier in the thread:

    During the May Day protests in England in 2000, nothing infuriated the British establishment — its press, its politicians, its courts of respectable opinion — more than the desecration of Winston Churchill’s statue in Parliament Square. The savage blood red spray-painted around Churchill’s mouth, the livid green strip of grass giving him a mohawk haircut, transforming the stoical father of the nation into the Joker, was unconscionable. Iconoclasm was all very well, to be encouraged even, but not when the target was an actual icon!

    It is difficult to convey the symbolic and emotional value of this man to Britain’s ruling class, and to a significant though declining number of its citizens. Those whose national consciousness is shaped by folk memories of World War II, probably the last moment of “greatness” save for England’s World Cup win in 1966, mostly know Churchill as the man who, more than any other, crushed the Nazi menace. Leading a wartime coalition government, he exhorted what had been a badly led and sold-out nation to dare, and win. He saved the British state, steering it through one of its worst crises. In his lifetime, Churchill was the last truly loved British leader; no one has since come close.
    with this blurb, at the very top, after the title:



    Another jewel, further in:

    In addition to being motivated by a profoundly antisemitic “good Jew-bad Jew” dichotomy, the colonial underpinnings of Churchill’s support for Zionism were later made clear when he addressed the Palestine Royal Commission on the subject of Palestinian self-determination. Resorting to bestiary for his imagery, he compared self-rule to the dog running its own manger, a right he did not acknowledge. “I do not admit,” he went on, “that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia . . . by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race . . . has come in and taken its place.”
    His conclusion:

    It makes sense that the British state idolizes Churchill. His history is its history. But who, knowing what that history is, can join in the reverence?

    Switch...your thoughts on the Seymour piece?

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKkin View Post
    Switch...your thoughts on the Seymour piece?
    “I do not admit,” he went on, “that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia . . . by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race . . . has come in and taken its place.”

    Progress is a wonderful thing ...those who'd decry it should think about that when they are speaking with their loved ones on a Mobile rather than having to light a fire, risk burning their blankets and for their message to be at the mercy of the wind. Shheeesh.

  3. #178
    fcuked off SKkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamPikToot View Post
    speaking with their loved ones on a Mobile
    or texting them across the dinner table...

  4. #179
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    ...mostly know Churchill as the man who, more than any other, crushed the Nazi menace.
    Wondering whether the same mitigation is considered when speaking about Joe Stalin - always as a dictator, butcher, etc - did he crushed "the Nazi menace" less than Churchill?

    The usual double standard - same when always mentioning KGB in connection with Putin, never the CIA in connection with old Bush...

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKkin View Post
    Probably better suited for Speakers. btw...The OP article author is not alone in his thoughts on Churchill.


    The beginning of the Richard Seymour article (The Real Winston Churchill), I posted earlier in the thread:



    with this blurb, at the very top, after the title:



    Another jewel, further in:



    His conclusion:




    Switch...your thoughts on the Seymour piece?
    Its an interesting piece. Although he concedes Churchill made a pretty good fist of the government of unity in WWII, when he was supported by Clement Attlee, who admired Churchill’s strategy even from the other side of the political divide.

    I don’t hold the same views that Churchill did regarding native populations. With power comes responsibility.
    The again I wasn’t born in the late 19th century.
    Most people ignore the fact that he was all for the working classes in his early years, limiting working hours and improving conditions for miners, and holding mine owners to account, but that’s all relative.
    There was alway two sides to this enigmatic man of his Times.
    Some of his driven personality came from the shame he felt about his fathers demise, and his own early experiences as a young officer in the Boer wars, where he came out publicly against some of the inhuman treatment delivered to pow’s.

  6. #181
    กงเกวียนกำเกวียน HuangLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    Wondering whether the same mitigation is considered when speaking about Joe Stalin - always as a dictator, butcher, etc - did he crushed "the Nazi menace" less than Churchill?

    The usual double standard - same when always mentioning KGB in connection with Putin, never the CIA in connection with old Bush...

    Manipulated historiology...
    The proverbial "good guys" and "bad guys" historical perspective and interpretation.

  7. #182
    fcuked off SKkin's Avatar
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    ^^ Thanks Switch for your thoughtful reply.

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKkin View Post
    ^^ Thanks Switch for your thoughtful reply.
    SKkin, sorry for mine.

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamPikToot View Post
    It seems all the active posters across the forum are pairing up at the moment, i'm feeling a little left out coz i've lost me Princess.
    You can always take me off ignore, but only if your anus has fully healed...

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamPikToot View Post
    “I do not admit,” he went on, “that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia . . . by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race . . . has come in and taken its place.”

    Progress is a wonderful thing ...those who'd decry it should think about that when they are speaking with their loved ones on a Mobile rather than having to light a fire, risk burning their blankets and for their message to be at the mercy of the wind. Shheeesh.


    Sorry to have been so flippant in my initial reply. I'm not that enamoured of all these modern technologies. Not so sure it's been as much of a "win" for humanity as some think. IMO its contributed to humanity losing its way. Disconnected us from the land and each other. Even though outwardly it seems we're more connected than ever before.

    Then again, maybe I'm the buggy whip guy in the dawning age of the horseless carraige.

  11. #186
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    There was alway two sides to this enigmatic man of his Times.
    ...yes, that's what the author in Post#1 suggested...I wonder if the acceptance of criticism is more difficult if it comes from a brown inferior race than from Churchill's own kind...

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamPikToot View Post
    “I do not admit,” he went on, “that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia . . . by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race . . . has come in and taken its place.”

    Progress is a wonderful thing ...
    Although, I do wonder if both you and him would still think the same if Germany("The master race") has succeeded and occupied both Europe and Russia?

    Or is it somehow different when the shoe is on the other foot?

  13. #188
    Thailand Expat terry57's Avatar
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    Jesus fookin Christ Tommy,

    Ya gota man up, girl up or even katoey up.

    Spit sum shit out besides all that fookin bull shit ya bollik on about eh.

    Cheers Tommy, no offence eh Bra. Ta

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...yes, that's what the author in Post#1 suggested...I wonder if the acceptance of criticism is more difficult if it comes from a brown inferior race than from Churchill's own kind...
    Keep banging that drum TC. You’ll get there in the end, albeit slowly. Very very slowly.

  15. #190
    Thailand Expat terry57's Avatar
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    Tommy is OK eh, just a tad fuked up but OK .

  16. #191
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Keep banging that drum TC.
    ...I made a general statement...you personalized it...
    Quote Originally Posted by SKkin View Post
    maybe I'm the buggy whip guy in the dawning age of the horseless carraige
    ...maybe?...

  17. #192
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    The problem with judging historical figures is using current day culture and morals. Alexander the great, the vikings, Julius Ceaser etc were products of the cultural and moral norms of their day. Compare Victorian morality with that of the Romans or the current era shows how much ideas and values change over time. Trying to judge people in previous eras where premature death, disease and ignorance were just part of the times. From our current perspective with our level of technical and medical advancement where many rarely experience these things are in some ways futile and pointless. In this day and age, a trip to the doctor or dentist for a relatively minor surgical procedure can still be a little traumatising, Imagine a visit to the surgeon in the 14th century.
    Everyone has 20/20 vision in hindsight.

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    The problem with judging historical figures is using current day culture and morals. .
    Nail meets head....why this was nothing more than a slight division.....

  19. #194
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NamPikToot View Post
    Nail meets head
    ...actually, Captain meets Obvious...

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...actually, Captain meets Obvious...
    TC, you aren't in ManKchester as well as Dill are you - late nights are going to ruin your complexion and put miles on the checks....

  21. #196
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    ...comfortably and permanently ensconced in bkk...

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...comfortably and permanently ensconced in bkk...

    BKK at 65th floor ain't good for the complexion too, if the smog don't get you the pavement will.

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    The problem with judging historical figures is using current day culture and morals. Alexander the great, the vikings, Julius Ceaser etc were products of the cultural and moral norms of their day. Compare Victorian morality with that of the Romans or the current era shows how much ideas and values change over time.
    Quite right. It's the same trying to judge present day cultures by one's own cultural standards... or religious standards.

  24. #199
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    According to the Operation Unthinkable plan ordered by Churchill and developed by the British Armed Forces, the Third World War could have started on 1 July 1945 with a sudden attack against the allied Soviet troops. The plan was rejected by the British Chiefs of Staff Committee as militarily unfeasible.[435]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winsto...une_1945_437-0

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...comfortably and permanently ensconced in bkk...
    In Bangers???

    Good for you, but where?

    I lived all over Bkk and didn't love anywhere that much (Thonglor is ok, but gets boring). Maybe a place in Thonglor and place closish like HuaHin for every third week, and a place up North to relax one month a year and perhaps a small beach condo in Krabi for a week here and there). Right, that's about 20 million baht spent, and I'm not sure it was worth it to be close to Gullivers and Siam Paragon...

    &, Winston was a great chap; we should have more statues of him...
    Cycling should be banned!!!

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