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  1. #1
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    Vatican Gayer Than San Francisco!

    The Vatican’s Gay Overlords
    A sensational new book mines the Catholic Church’s sexual secrets. Will right-wing homophobes exploit it?

    By Frank Bruni
    Opinion Columnist (NYT)

    Marveling at the mysterious sanctum that his new book explores, the French journalist Frédéric Martel writes that “even in San Francisco’s Castro” there aren’t “quite as many gays.”
    He’s talking about the Vatican. And he’s delivering a bombshell.

    Although the book’s publishers have kept it under tight wraps, I obtained a copy in advance of its release next Thursday. It will come out in eight languages and 20 countries, under the title “Sodoma,” as in Sodom, in Western Europe and “In the Closet of the Vatican” in the United States, Britain and Canada.


    It includes the claim that about 80 percent of the male Roman Catholic clergy who work at the Vatican, around the pope, are gay. It contends that the more showily homophobic a Vatican official is, the more likely he belongs to that crowd, and that the higher up the chain of command you go, the more gays you find. And not all of them are celibate. Not by a long shot.

    But I’m bothered and even a little scared. Whatever Martel’s intent, “In the Closet of the Vatican” may be less a constructive reckoning than a stockpile of ammunition for militant right-wing Catholics who already itch to conduct a witch hunt for gay priests, many of whom are exemplary — and chaste — servants of the church. Those same Catholics oppose sensible and necessary reforms, and will point to the book’s revelations as proof that the church is already too permissive and has lost its dignity and its way.

    Although Martel himself is openly gay, he sensationalizes gayness by devoting his inquiry to Catholic officials who have had sex with men, not ones who have had sex with women. The promise of celibacy that priests make forbids all sexual partners, and what violates Catholic teaching isn’t just gay sex but sex outside marriage. In that context, Martel’s focus on homosexuality buys into the notion that it’s especially troubling and titillating.
    His tone doesn’t help. “The world I am discovering, with its 50 shades of gay, is beyond comprehension,” he writes. It will seem to some readers “a fairy tale.” He challenges the conventional wisdom that Pope Francis, who has detractors all around him, is “among the wolves,” clarifying, “It’s not quite true: he’s among the queens.” Maybe it’s better in the original French, but this language is at once profoundly silly and deeply offensive.

    The sourcing of much of “In the Closet of the Vatican” is vague, and other Vatican experts told me that the 80 percent figure is neither knowable nor credible.

    I’m supposed to cheer, right? I’m an openly gay man. I’m a sometime church critic. Hooray for the exposure of hypocrisy in high places and the affirmation that some of our tormentors have tortured motives. Thank heaven for the challenge to their moral authority. Let the sun in. Let the truth out.

    “It’s not a scientifically based accusation — it’s an ideologically based one,” said the Rev. Thomas Reese, a columnist for The National Catholic Reporter who visits the Vatican frequently and has written several highly regarded books about the Roman Catholic hierarchy. “One of the problems is that Catholic bishops have never allowed any kind of research in this area. They don’t want to know how many gay priests there are.” Independent studies put the percentage of gay men among Catholic priests in the United States at 15 percent to 60 percent.
    In a telephone interview on Thursday, Martel stressed that the 80 percent isn’t his estimate but that of a former priest at the Vatican whom he quotes by name in the book. But he presents that quotation without sufficient skepticism and, in his own words, writes, “It’s a big majority.”

    He says that “
    In the Closet of the Vatican” is informed by about 1,500 interviews over four years and the contributions of scores of researchers and other assistants. I covered the Vatican for The Times for nearly two years, and the book has a richness of detail that’s persuasive. It’s going to be widely discussed and hotly debated.


    It depicts different sexual subcultures, including clandestine meetings between Vatican officials and young heterosexual Muslim men in Rome who work as prostitutes. It names names, and while many belong to Vatican officials and other priests who are dead or whose sexual identities have come under public scrutiny before, Martel also lavishes considerable energy on the suggestion that Francis’ predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, and other towering figures in the church are gay.

    Perhaps the most vivid of the double lives under Martel’s gaze is that of Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo of Colombia, who died a little over a decade ago. According to the book, he prowled the ranks of seminarians and young priests for men to seduce and routinely hired male prostitutes, sometimes beating them up after sex. All the while he promoted the church’s teaching that all gay men are “objectively disordered” and embraced its ban on priests who are believed to have “deep-seated homosexual tendencies,” whether they act on them or not.

    Part of my concern about the book is the timing of its release, which coincides precisely with
    an unprecedented meeting at the Vatican about sexual abuse in the church. For the first time, the pope has summoned the presidents of every Catholic bishops conference around the world to discuss this topic alone. But the book “is also bound to shift attention away from child abuse and onto gay priests in general, once again falsely conflating in people’s minds homosexuality and pedophilia,” said the Rev. James Martin, a best-selling Jesuit author, in a recent tweet. He’s right.

    The book doesn’t equate them, and in fact makes the different, important point that the church’s culture of secrecy — a culture created in part by gay priests’ need to conceal who they are — works against the exposure of molesters who are guilty of crimes.

    As David Clohessy, a longtime advocate for survivors of sexual abuse by priests, said to me on the phone a few days ago: “Many priests have a huge disincentive to report sexual misdeeds by colleagues. They know they’re vulnerable to being blackballed. It’s celibacy and the secretive, rigid, ancient all-male hierarchy that contributes to the cover-up and, therefore, more abuse.” Abuse has no sexual orientation, a fact made clear by many cases of priests having sex with girls and adult women, including nuns, whose victimization by priests was publicly acknowledged by Pope Francis for the first time early this month.

    But that’s a crucial subtlety that’s too easily lost in the thicket of exclamation points in “In the Closet of the Vatican.” And more people will read the racy headlines about the book than the book itself. What they may take away is this: Catholic priests are twisted characters. And gay men are creatures of stealth and agents of deception who band together in eccentric societies with odd rituals.


    I asked Martel what his aim was. “
    I’m a journalist,” he said. “My only goal is to write stories. I’m not a Catholic. I don’t have any motive of revenge. My concern is not that the church will be better or worse. I’m outside of the church.”

    I asked him if he worried about homophobes weaponizing the book. If they read it correctly, he answered, they’ll realize that rooting out gays would mean ridding the church of some of their heroes, who inveigh against homosexuality as a way of denying and camouflaging who they really are. The cardinals most accepting of gays, he said, are those who are probably straight.

    All else aside, the book speaks to the enormous and seemingly growing tension between a church that frequently vilifies and marginalizes gay men and a priesthood dense with them. “This fact hangs in the air as a giant, unsustainable paradox,” wrote Andrew Sullivan, who is Catholic and gay, in an
    excellent cover story for New York magazine last month. It explains why so many gay men entered the priesthood, especially decades ago: They didn’t feel safe or comfortable in a society that ostracized them. Their sense of being outsiders gave them a more spiritual bent and greater desire to help others in need.


    They weren’t pulling off some elaborate ruse or looking for the clerical equivalent of a bathhouse. They were trying, psychologically and emotionally, to survive. Many still are, and I fear that “In the Closet of the Vatican” won’t help.













    Last edited by tomcat; 15-02-2019 at 06:31 PM.
    Majestically enthroned amid the vulgar herd

  2. #2
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    Reposting with a less gay font...


    By Frank Bruni
    Opinion Columnist (NYT)

    Marveling at the mysterious sanctum that his new book explores, the French journalist Frédéric Martel writes that “even in San Francisco’s Castro” there aren’t “quite as many gays.”
    He’s talking about the Vatican. And he’s delivering a bombshell.

    Although the book’s publishers have kept it under tight wraps, I obtained a copy in advance of its release next Thursday. It will come out in eight languages and 20 countries, under the title “Sodoma,” as in Sodom, in Western Europe and “In the Closet of the Vatican” in the United States, Britain and Canada.

    It includes the claim that about 80 percent of the male Roman Catholic clergy who work at the Vatican, around the pope, are gay. It contends that the more showily homophobic a Vatican official is, the more likely he belongs to that crowd, and that the higher up the chain of command you go, the more gays you find. And not all of them are celibate. Not by a long shot.

    But I’m bothered and even a little scared. Whatever Martel’s intent, “In the Closet of the Vatican” may be less a constructive reckoning than a stockpile of ammunition for militant right-wing Catholics who already itch to conduct a witch hunt for gay priests, many of whom are exemplary — and chaste — servants of the church. Those same Catholics oppose sensible and necessary reforms, and will point to the book’s revelations as proof that the church is already too permissive and has lost its dignity and its way.

    Although Martel himself is openly gay, he sensationalizes gayness by devoting his inquiry to Catholic officials who have had sex with men, not ones who have had sex with women. The promise of celibacy that priests make forbids all sexual partners, and what violates Catholic teaching isn’t just gay sex but sex outside marriage. In that context, Martel’s focus on homosexuality buys into the notion that it’s especially troubling and titillating.
    His tone doesn’t help. “The world I am discovering, with its 50 shades of gay, is beyond comprehension,” he writes. It will seem to some readers “a fairy tale.” He challenges the conventional wisdom that Pope Francis, who has detractors all around him, is “among the wolves,” clarifying, “It’s not quite true: he’s among the queens.” Maybe it’s better in the original French, but this language is at once profoundly silly and deeply offensive.

    The sourcing of much of “In the Closet of the Vatican” is vague, and other Vatican experts told me that the 80 percent figure is neither knowable nor credible.
    I’m supposed to cheer, right? I’m an openly gay man. I’m a sometime church critic. Hooray for the exposure of hypocrisy in high places and the affirmation that some of our tormentors have tortured motives. Thank heaven for the challenge to their moral authority. Let the sun in. Let the truth out.

    “It’s not a scientifically based accusation — it’s an ideologically based one,” said the Rev. Thomas Reese, a columnist for The National Catholic Reporter who visits the Vatican frequently and has written several highly regarded books about the Roman Catholic hierarchy. “One of the problems is that Catholic bishops have never allowed any kind of research in this area. They don’t want to know how many gay priests there are.” Independent studies put the percentage of gay men among Catholic priests in the United States at 15 percent to 60 percent.
    In a telephone interview on Thursday, Martel stressed that the 80 percent isn’t his estimate but that of a former priest at the Vatican whom he quotes by name in the book. But he presents that quotation without sufficient skepticism and, in his own words, writes, “It’s a big majority.”

    He says that “In the Closet of the Vatican” is informed by about 1,500 interviews over four years and the contributions of scores of researchers and other assistants. I covered the Vatican for The Times for nearly two years, and the book has a richness of detail that’s persuasive. It’s going to be widely discussed and hotly debated.

    It depicts different sexual subcultures, including clandestine meetings between Vatican officials and young heterosexual Muslim men in Rome who work as prostitutes. It names names, and while many belong to Vatican officials and other priests who are dead or whose sexual identities have come under public scrutiny before, Martel also lavishes considerable energy on the suggestion that Francis’ predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, and other towering figures in the church are gay.
    Perhaps the most vivid of the double lives under Martel’s gaze is that of Cardinal Alfonso López Trujillo of Colombia, who died a little over a decade ago. According to the book, he prowled the ranks of seminarians and young priests for men to seduce and routinely hired male prostitutes, sometimes beating them up after sex. All the while he promoted the church’s teaching that all gay men are “objectively disordered” and embraced its ban on priests who are believed to have “deep-seated homosexual tendencies,” whether they act on them or not.

    Part of my concern about the book is the timing of its release, which coincides precisely with an unprecedented meeting at the Vatican about sexual abuse in the church. For the first time, the pope has summoned the presidents of every Catholic bishops conference around the world to discuss this topic alone. But the book “is also bound to shift attention away from child abuse and onto gay priests in general, once again falsely conflating in people’s minds homosexuality and pedophilia,” said the Rev. James Martin, a best-selling Jesuit author, in a recent tweet. He’s right.
    The book doesn’t equate them, and in fact makes the different, important point that the church’s culture of secrecy — a culture created in part by gay priests’ need to conceal who they are — works against the exposure of molesters who are guilty of crimes.

    As David Clohessy, a longtime advocate for survivors of sexual abuse by priests, said to me on the phone a few days ago: “Many priests have a huge disincentive to report sexual misdeeds by colleagues. They know they’re vulnerable to being blackballed. It’s celibacy and the secretive, rigid, ancient all-male hierarchy that contributes to the cover-up and, therefore, more abuse.” Abuse has no sexual orientation, a fact made clear by many cases of priests having sex with girls and adult women, including nuns, whose victimization by priests was publicly acknowledged by Pope Francis for the first time early this month.

    But that’s a crucial subtlety that’s too easily lost in the thicket of exclamation points in “In the Closet of the Vatican.” And more people will read the racy headlines about the book than the book itself. What they may take away is this: Catholic priests are twisted characters. And gay men are creatures of stealth and agents of deception who band together in eccentric societies with odd rituals.

    I asked Martel what his aim was. “I’m a journalist,” he said. “My only goal is to write stories. I’m not a Catholic. I don’t have any motive of revenge. My concern is not that the church will be better or worse. I’m outside of the church.”
    I asked him if he worried about homophobes weaponizing the book. If they read it correctly, he answered, they’ll realize that rooting out gays would mean ridding the church of some of their heroes, who inveigh against homosexuality as a way of denying and camouflaging who they really are. The cardinals most accepting of gays, he said, are those who are probably straight.

    All else aside, the book speaks to the enormous and seemingly growing tension between a church that frequently vilifies and marginalizes gay men and a priesthood dense with them. “This fact hangs in the air as a giant, unsustainable paradox,” wrote Andrew Sullivan, who is Catholic and gay, in an excellent cover story for New York magazine last month. It explains why so many gay men entered the priesthood, especially decades ago: They didn’t feel safe or comfortable in a society that ostracized them. Their sense of being outsiders gave them a more spiritual bent and greater desire to help others in need.

    They weren’t pulling off some elaborate ruse or looking for the clerical equivalent of a bathhouse. They were trying, psychologically and emotionally, to survive. Many still are, and I fear that “In the Closet of the Vatican” won’t help.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    It depicts different sexual subcultures, including clandestine meetings between Vatican officials and young heterosexual Muslim men in Rome who work as prostitutes.

  4. #4
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    Anything gay related should be short and to the point.

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    Thailand Expat cyrille's Avatar
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    Catholic priests are twisted characters. And gay men are creatures of stealth and agents of deception who band together in eccentric societies with odd rituals.
    News just in.

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    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    ...a propos:

    Vatican Envoy to France Under Investigation for Sexual Assault

    By Aurelien Breeden (NYT)

    PARIS — The Vatican’s envoy to France is under investigation after being accused of sexually molesting an employee of Paris City Hall, French officials said on Friday.
    The case adds to a long list of sexual assault accusations around the globe — from minors, other priests and nuns, among others — that have confronted the Roman Catholic Church and that threaten Pope Francis’ pontificate.

    The Paris prosecutor’s office opened the preliminary investigation on Jan. 24, according to a spokesman for the French judiciary, after it was informed by Paris City Hall of the accusations. The spokesman, who insisted on anonymity in line with department policy, did not provide further details.


    A City Hall official said on Friday that the employee had accused the envoy, Archbishop Luigi Ventura, 74, of “repeatedly” sexually molesting him on the sidelines of one of Mayor Anne Hidalgo’s traditional New Year’s ceremonies, on Jan. 17.

    The official, who said he was not authorized to speak publicly about an investigation while it was in process, said that the employee, whose name has not been made public, was in his 30s and worked for the city’s international relations department. On the day he said the sexual assault took place, he was charged with greeting and guiding the archbishop before the ceremony.

    Archbishop Ventura, the apostolic nuncio to France, has been the Vatican’s diplomatic representative in Paris since 2009, and he has regularly attended the ceremony, during which the mayor meets with religious leaders and the diplomatic corps. But the City Hall official said this was the first time a city employee had complained about the archbishop’s behavior.

    The employee accused Archbishop Ventura of touching his buttocks on three occasions, the official said, first when the Vatican envoy arrived at City Hall, greeting him and complimenting him on his physical appearance. The employee said he thought the gesture might have been involuntary, according to the official.


    But the archbishop touched the man’s buttocks a second time several minutes later, this time more forcefully, according to the official, who said “there was no more doubt for the employee that this act was voluntary.”

    The employee sought to distance himself from the archbishop, going to another room, but the archbishop followed him and touched his buttocks a third time, the official said. In that instance, four other City Hall employees were witnesses.

    The employee left and told his manager, and on Jan. 23 the city authorities formally informed the Paris prosecutor’s office of the episode in a written letter, the official said, as well as the Foreign Ministry.

    A Vatican spokesman, Alessandro Gisotti, said in a statement that, having learned of the case through news reports, “the Holy See awaits the outcome of the investigation.”
    The investigation comes days before Pope Francis is to meet with the presidents of the world’s bishops’ conferences and other religious leaders at the Vatican for an unprecedented conference focusing on the protection of minors in the church.
    Vatican officials have described the four-day event as an educational meeting for pastors to assist the global church to better deal with clerical sexual abuse, especially in areas where the issue has still not received the attention it warrants.

    Advocates for victims and church critics say that the Vatican has been largely ineffectual in addressing the issue, and the persistence of scandals throughout the world — cases emerged last year in Chile, Germany, the United States and other countries — continue to threaten the credibility of the church.


    Last year
    , another Vatican diplomat, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, the former apostolic nuncio to the United States, accused Francis of personally covering up cases of sexual abuse and called for his resignation.

    In a long letter leaked to the news media, Archbishop Viganò also called out other clerics he accused of belonging to “homosexual networks” inside the church.



    Last edited by tomcat; 15-02-2019 at 11:19 PM.

  7. #7
    fat cnut SKkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    the higher up the chain of command you go, the more gays you find.

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    Time to play The Vatican Rag...

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    This could be the least shocking news I've ever read. The Roman church has historically & traditionally being gayer than the front row at a Barbara Streisand concert. I don't think the title even deserves an exclamation mark.

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    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    The Roman church has historically & traditionally being gayer than the front row at a Barbara Streisand concert
    ...if that's the case, I wonder why the church hasn't been reviled as a creation of satan and a mote in the eye of the lord...maybe clergy in drag are just too entertaining to hate...

    Quote Originally Posted by BaitongBoy View Post
    Time to play The Vatican Rag...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    I wonder why the church hasn't been reviled as a creation of satan and a mote in the eye of the lord
    I'm sure you don't wonder. You know as well as I why. Manipulation and control via fear of God and His representatives on Earth.
    I was chatting with a staunchly Catholic friend a few weeks ago. She, as other Catholics, is totally 100% convinced that the Pope is God's choice and his election is the result of the Holy Spirit entering the cardinals and guiding them to their vote. The Bible has been written by men whose hands were guided by the Holy Spirit to write the absolute truth. God as an omniscient and omnipotent force.
    That sort of staunch belief doesn't allow for questions. The subject came up because we had a disagreement over recent news of yet another priest charged with molestation. She actually excused him by saying he is just a man with male urges, like everyone else!!!! I asked why he took his urges out on innocent boys and why he couldn't sate his urges with like-oriented colleagues. "God will decide the level of his crime", was the response. To which I asked why the high officials cover up these crimes and allow them to continue. At this point she accused me of attackeing her personally and unfrinded me.

    The level of blind faith in the clergy and God is hard for me to comprehend.

    And to add another angle, because I don't hold Christianity in general as culpable for the crimes committed by Catholic clergy. Although Protestant clergy (and congregants) have had their scandals and crimes, I would hazard a guess that the Protestant churches have a gay membership probably around the same statistical level as the rest of the population. I would also hazard that amongst protestant congregants there would be far less turning of a blind eye to wayward priests.
    Last edited by Maanaam; 16-02-2019 at 07:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maanaam View Post
    She, as other Catholics, is totally 100% convinced that the Pope is God's choice and his election
    ...inject a little reality into your chats with her: show her the article above and congratulate her for accepting that gay clergy will lead her to paradise...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...inject a little reality into your chats with her: show her the article above and congratulate her for accepting that gay clergy will lead her to paradise...
    Too late. She's stormed off in a huff and unfriended me. The truth cuts too deep, and the implications are literally unbearable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maanaam View Post
    She's stormed off in a huff and unfriended me
    ...of course: she understands her safety is with the herd and not with reality...

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...if that's the case, I wonder why the church hasn't been reviled as a creation of satan and a mote in the eye of the lord...maybe clergy in drag are just too entertaining to hate...
    It has been reviled in that way by many flavours of Christianity for as many centuries as Catholic priests have been lifting shirts & shagging alter boys. It's a common theme amongst the Jesus-inspired spinoffs to compare the rise of the Roman church and the Pope with the Revelation scriptures concerning the Beast & the Anti-Christ.

    Again, not shocking news.
    It was a popular conspiracy theory for centuries until the masses decided that flat planets and dodging vaccines was more important.
    Ronald McDonald never sells to children. He informs and inspires through magic and fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    It has been reviled in that way by many flavours of Christianity for as many centuries as Catholic priests have been lifting shirts & shagging alter boys. It's a common theme amongst the Jesus-inspired spinoffs to compare the rise of the Roman church and the Pope with the Revelation scriptures concerning the Beast & the Anti-Christ.
    ...and yet: believers seem to regularly overlook such transgressions with a bit of handwringing and hope that clerical promises to do better in the future will be fulfilled...such snake oil must be the opiate Marx referred to...

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    Surprise surprise TC with another tedious anti christian thread. Methinks he doth protest too much. More likely a closet Christian who is like a car driver that wants a license to drive, but doesnt want to obey the road rules.
    Cheer up, God loves you.........In a strictly manly, (keep your hand off my todger Roger), but caring way of course.
    BTW In a gesture of forgiveness and inclusion and in keeping with a tradition started last year, our church will cease hanging homosexuals from the spire during lent and will not resume until the end of easter.
    However, burnings at the stake will continue during this period but only after childrens sunday school in an effort to save the souls of these tragic sinners and to teach our little ones good Christian values whilst enjoying a good sausage sizzle .
    Last edited by Hugh Cow; 16-02-2019 at 08:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    another tedious anti christian thread.
    Not so. Anti-Catholic, perhaps. But the OP is not even that. It's a discussion of homosexuality within the Catholic halls and cubicles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maanaam View Post
    And to add another angle, because I don't hold Christianity in general as culpable for the crimes committed by Catholic clergy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    another tedious anti christian thread
    ...blinkered understanding of the OP...no need to rush to the defense of predatory pedophile priests (always avoid alliteration) or confuse an expose of anti-social behavior with anti-Christian sentiments...folks with your beliefs have tolerated religion-draped muck far too long: well past time to move away from the swamp of delusion and look under priestly rocks to uncover the slime that calls itself pious...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maanaam View Post
    She's stormed off in a huff and unfriended me
    How unchrist like! Turn the other cheek, forgiveness and all stuff related. Clearly the bitch is not really a Christian.

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    The Catholic Church has thrown its hat in the ring and come out swinging against these scurrilous accusations of depraved bottom-burgling by playing the equality card and abusing nuns too.

    Check out this pair of smirking minxes....



    What are they giggling about? Not wearing any under-girdlings under the righteous robes at morning mass for a double-dare... ?

    #nunstoo !!!!!

    https://www.abc. net.au/news/2019-02-16/catholic-church-headed-for-another-sex-abuse-scandal-nunstoo/10817270
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Look,

    Bottom line is that punters doin Faggotry and exploring the inner working of their boy friends shitter should be keep in the closet and buried deep away from normal fukers who like to shag stunning looking bitches in the front bottom.

    We all know Tommy considers himself a Master plumber but it's starting to become a tad fookin disturbing and nasty.

    Give it a fookin miss Tommy . Faggoty this, faggotry that ????

    Fook ??????
    Stroller is a Yerman faggot.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plan B View Post
    This could be the least shocking news I've ever read. The Roman church has historically & traditionally being gayer than the front row at a Barbara Streisand concert. I don't think the title even deserves an exclamation mark.
    I did not even bother to read most the long OP .
    Take a bunch of men and women, force them to deny their nature, and then be surprised when it results in sexual problems.
    Not that Homosexuality is the problem. A certain percentage of people have always being gay, the problem is forcing people to deny their nature , resulting in unnatural behaviour.
    The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up.

  24. #24
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai View Post
    the problem is forcing people to deny their nature
    ...indeed, Jebus toadies have much to answer for...

  25. #25
    Valve Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai View Post
    the problem is forcing people to deny their nature , resulting in unnatural behaviour.
    You mean like expecting my Isaan wife to pay half the rent ?

    Wasn't that a cock-up !

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