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  1. #1
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Spreading the Light of Christ to the Savages

    ...Christian supremacists have a lot to answer for:
    Before European Christians Forced Gender Roles, Native Americans Acknowledged 5 Genders


    The Two Spirit tradition used to be a normal part of everyday life in Native tribes.
    By Staff Contributor (Daily Plug)

    It wasn’t until Europeans took over North America that Natives adopted gender roles. There was no real “normal” in their tribes. And unlike today, people who identified with the other gender were not viewed as some sort of abnormality, or as someone to be shunned or even accommodated.In fact, people who had both female and male characteristics were viewed as gifted by nature, and therefore, able to see both sides of everything. According to Indian Country Today, all native communities acknowledged the following gender roles: “female, male, Two Spirit female, Two Spirit male and transgendered.”

    In Native American cultures, people were valued for their contributions to the tribe, rather than for masculinity or femininity. Parents did not assign gender roles to children either, and even children’s clothing tended to be gender neutral. There were no ideas or ideals about how a person should live or love; it was simply a natural act that occurred without judgement or hesitation.
    Without a negative stigma attached to being Two Spirited, there were no inner-tribal incidents of retaliation or violence toward the chosen people simply due to the fact that individuals identified as the opposite or both genders.

    “Each tribe has their own specific term, but there was a need for a universal term that the general population [of English-speakers] could understand. The Navajo refer to Two Spirits as Nádleehí (one who is transformed), among the Lakota is Winkté (indicative of a male who has a compulsion to behave as a female), Niizh Manidoowag (two spirit) in Ojibwe, Hemaneh (half man, half woman) in Cheyenne, to name a few.

    “As the purpose of “Two Spirit” is to be used as a universal term in the English language, it is not always translatable with the same meaning in Native languages. For example, in the Iroquois Cherokee language, there is no way to translate the term, but the Cherokee do have gender variance terms for ‘women who feel like men’ and vice versa.”
    The “Two Spirit” culture of Native Americans was one of the first things that Europeans worked to destroy and cover up. According to people like American artist George Catlin, the Two Spirit tradition had to be eradicated before it could go into history books. Catlin said the tradition “must be extinguished before it can be more fully recorded.”

    However, it wasn’t only white Englishmen that tried to hide any trace of native genderqueerness. According to Indian Country Today, “Spanish Catholic monks destroyed most of the Aztec codices to eradicate traditional Native beliefs and history, including those that told of the Two Spirit tradition.” Throughout these efforts by Christians, Native Americans were forced to dress and act according to newly designated gender roles.

    One of the most celebrated Two Spirits in recorded history was a Lakota warrior aptly named Finds Them And Kills Them. Osh-Tisch was born a male and married a female, but adorned himself in women’s clothing and lived daily life as a female. On June 17 1876, Finds Them And Kills Them gained his reputation when he rescued a fellow tribesman during the Battle of Rosebud Creek.
    Osh-Tisch (Left) and his wife (Right)


    “The Two Spirit people in pre-contact Native America were highly revered and families that included them were considered lucky. Indians believed that a person who was able to see the world through the eyes of both genders at the same time was a gift from The Creator.”

    Religious influences soon brought serious prejudice against gender diversity, and so this forced once openly alternative or androgynous people to one of two choices. They could either live in hiding, and in fear of being found out, or they could end their lives. Many of them did indeed end their lives.
    Majestically enthroned amid the vulgar herd

  2. #2
    Ex TD Fat Club VP Dillinger's Avatar
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    Generalising thousands of Native Indian tribes?

    Wouldn't have been written by some Sodomite by any chance?

    What a crock of shit..

    If they were tolerated, it would have been not because they crossdressed or loved cock but because they'd have to take on more roles, like hunting, needlework, babysitting, cooking and doing the washing up.

  3. #3
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    Native Americans do seem to have a way of making sense of life, and living in tandem with nature, culturally and socially. Respect.

  4. #4
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    I wouldn't mind me some Pocahontas.

  5. #5
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourDaddy View Post
    I wouldn't mind me some Pocahontas.
    ...or maybe her boyfriend Pocahomo...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Native Americans do seem to have a way of making sense of life, and living in tandem with nature, culturally and socially. Respect.
    The ones I met were solely concerned with ripping off tourists and my feeling was that John Wayne had not killed enough of them. I met only a relatively small sample and feel that there must be some nice ones out there.

  7. #7
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    Great article TC. I met a few transgender natives the last time I went into the AK bush at some unnamed, quite remote villages. Can't say I had any deep or profound conversations with them about the issue but they were refreshingly polite and helpful when questioned about the local area, unlike the majority.

  8. #8
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    ...very nice...were you sporting a feather in your hair?...

  9. #9
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    Why do I have this vision of TC dancing around the totempole dressed as a squaw.

    Not dissimilar to Begbie at the Highland games

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...very nice...were you sporting a feather in your hair?...
    No,...but I had a bear claw around my neck, a song on my lips, love in my soul and....well, gifts..

  11. #11
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    ...wampum good for melt ice in heart...

  12. #12
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chittychangchang View Post
    Why do I have this vision of TC dancing around the totempole dressed as a squaw.
    ...possibly because you smoke the cheapest dope you can find...

  13. #13
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    Would that be from a peace pipe?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    ...wampum good for melt ice in heart...

    See pm

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    @tomcat - in PI before Spanish colonization, there were shamans who were called "babaylan", who were either female or feminized males. The babaylans were respected in the community. It was only with the coming of the Spaniards and Christianity (plus Islam from Arab, Indo & Malay traders) that the babaylans were ostracized and considered as witches. Before Christianity & Islam, pre-colonial Filipinos were mainly animistic.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babaylan

  17. #17
    Ex TD Fat Club VP Dillinger's Avatar
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    ^ you meam animalistic, like Tom the ferret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    Osh-Tisch (Left) and his wife (Right)
    Glad they clarified that.
    Quote Originally Posted by tomcat View Post
    Indians believed that a person who was able to see the world through the eyes of both genders at the same time was a gift from The Creator.”
    Counts you out, Tom, sorry. You only see through the eyes of the third gender. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
    If they were tolerated, it would have been not because they crossdressed or loved cock but because they'd have to take on more roles, like hunting, needlework, babysitting, cooking and doing the washing up.
    Nahh. Tolerated and included in Polynesian culture. Samoans even encouraged the traits. Their word, "faafafine" (and dialect variants) meant "doing it like a woman" and to this day faafafine are only ridiculed by Western influenced villagers who are probably, like most homophobes, insecure in their own sexuality.
    Quote Originally Posted by katie23 View Post
    the coming of the Spaniards and Christianity (plus Islam
    That's it in a nutshell. Religion creating bias and intolerance.

  19. #19
    Ex TD Fat Club VP Dillinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maanaam View Post
    Samoans even encouraged the traits. Their word, "faafafine" (and dialect variants) meant "doing it like a woman"
    You meam like household chores?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
    You meam like household chores?
    I take your point...yes, household chores. But consider: a warrior people that collectively value the protection of the warriors and the food from the hunters..."women's work" was not something one aspires too. It was/is more about understanding and compassion for accepting a person for what he is, not about what he offered the village.

  21. #21
    ความรู้ลึกลับ HuangLao's Avatar
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    And still don't know what this fictitious Jesus character practiced.
    Suspicious of the company that he kept......or didn't keep.

  22. #22
    ความรู้ลึกลับ HuangLao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maanaam View Post
    I take your point...yes, household chores. But consider: a warrior people that collectively value the protection of the warriors and the food from the hunters..."women's work" was not something one aspires too. It was/is more about understanding and compassion for accepting a person for what he is, not about what he offered the village.

    That's why some Fa'afafines make for influential orators and arbitrators within the extended village standing - many of the "taking chief" stature.....

    Fa'a Samoa.

  23. #23
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maanaam View Post
    Religion creating bias and intolerance.
    ...I hope you weren't influenced by the thread title...

  24. #24
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    This thread inspired me to watch some Mia Li & Mara Nova

  25. #25
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    ...^tribals from the Ontario Iroquois, I assume...

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