Crime and Punishment

[Agent_Smith]

After reading the latest criminal idiocy in Asia News, I feel prompted to ask other members here a very simple question.


That is, what is the solution to crime? Simple, eh.

The hard line view is lock 'em up, let 'em rot, kill 'em etc, etc.

Liberal view is to "cure" the criminals, give 'em another chance to straighten up and fly right, retrain, "reprogram" etc, etc.

What are your views? Thousands of books have been written of course, but I wonder if their is some general system out there that could be applied to solve the problem of most, if not all, criminal activity. Or maybe, a complete redesign of society itself?

Personally, how we address criminals has a lot to do with the type of crime committed. Locking everyone up for a certain period of time for every type of non-misdemeanor crime seems lazy and ineffective. Financial crimes, like fraud and burglary, should have a financial payback element, for example. Violent crimes, on the extreme, should just be dealt with like an eye for eye type justice. Things in between should be dealt with by solutions comparable to the crimes, not necessarily involving incarceration.

Anyway, the crime that prompted me to post was some 20 year old guys mugging old people with machetes. What solution would prevent them from doing stuff like this again? Could you apply it across the board without having larger societal negative consequences?

[Switch]

The eye for an eye measures are too simplistic and reflect some of the more barbaric principles of sharia law, I.e. cutting off the hand of a thief.

Poor or absent parenting is a serious issue, but what can you do with children orphaned by pointless wars, especially in third world countries?

Stop fueling pointless wars and, either provide parenting classes, or control poverty breeding.

Drastic innit, and slightly dispassionate too. The alternative is to accept machete wielding thugs attacking old people. Which is worse?

[YourDaddy]

The real crime.

4,622 posts and only 1 gold star!

Who is going to take you seriously on TD with a reputation like this.

We need to start improving your repo. I have just done my part, but can't do it alone.

Try social media, twitter, FB, YouTube, blogs, linkedin, gofundme, etc.....

Remind me after a few days, and I'll green another random post.

Hang in there.... susu

[tomcat]

the crime that prompted me to post was some 20 year old guys mugging old people with machetes

...the answer to bad guys mugging the elderly with machetes is good guys with guns following closely behind the coffin dodgers...

[Maanaam]

but I wonder if their is some general system out there that could be applied to solve the problem of most, if not all, criminal activity.

Probably not unless it was drastic or complicated and expensive.
Education systems are designed for one shoe fits all, and don't work the best because people are different and have different learning needs. There are aural, kinesthetic, and visual learners, all who will respond to learning methods differently.
I would suggest the same idea about people being different and will respond differently to different punitive/corrective measures is true when it comes to justice.
There needs to be a combination of possible measures including preventative (education, parenting and upbringing etc).
Simplistically, an option for radical, severe punishment (including death), an option for incarceration (not punishment per se but removal from society for the sake of society...psychopaths for example), another option for incarceration as punishment, another option for financial punishment, another for corrective measures such as therapy and re-education. All the while underpinned by social and formal education schemes.
Oh, wait, we have all those already.

It's the application and the strength of the measures that's not working, and a blindness or apathy of justice authorities to look closer at individual corrective/punitive needs.

[Switch]

The application and strength of the measure applied according to learning needs is likely to be divisive, not least to the victims and also to the community the system serves. Hence the one size fits all.

That leaves us at the mercy of a supposedly objective judiciary.

Education and consistency is but a dream.

[Maanaam]

The application and strength of the measure applied according to learning needs

I think you missed that "learning needs" was an analogy showing how people are different and thus require different treatments.

the same idea about people being different and will respond differently to different...

The point being that results will vary for each individual because a one-size-fits-all appoach doesn't work because people are different.

[headhunter]

crime is RIFE,as for punishment NONIXISTENT,why?because as the PM.said it will cause great hardship to families.

[docmartin]

If people have done wrong and can be rehabilitated then they should be for moral and practical reasons.
But some people are arseholes and always will be, so those cases should be locked up or fed to pigs.
Mmmm ... bacon.

[Latindancer]

And what about those people who have committed crimes but are actually mentally ill ? "Put em in a mental institution" I hear you say.

But what about those with marginal mental illnesses ? It has been estimated that 40% of Australian inmates have some form of mental illness. And if they didn't when they were incarcerated, they sure would have been pushed over the edge after going in...

[jabir]

While education has an influence on outcomes, that's for others more qualified than me.

I'm all for giving the bad guys a break, two or three or several for lesser crimes, before rapidly escalating punishments based not on the number of available prison spaces or protesting bleeding hearts but their negative contribution to society. For the pedants, this is not a one fits all solution but a general principle, since every criminal has their unique set of mitigating factors.

In the given example of those kids mugging old people with machetes, no solution would deter them from similar repeat offences short of a stiff punishment with the clear understanding that the next time they get well and truly fcuked. For the underage, we would need to join the great debate on whether parents should bear the consequences.

It's this rights thing that the oh so righteous need to address; why should the rights and lives of vulnerable law abiding people be worth less than those of degenerates that have no regard for the rights of others? Answer that and I might start swaying.

[Switch]

I didn’t miss anything Manny. I merely stated why your system would fail, and lead to the status quo we have now, which is open to abuse by inconsistent judiciary in the application of penalties.

I have studied learning needs analysis at degree level because it was a big part of my job.

[uncle junior]

some 20 year old guys mugging old people with machetes. What solution would prevent them from doing stuff like this again?

More machetes needed

[Norton]

It has been estimated that 40% of Teakdoor members have some form of mental illness

I would have put the estimate much, much higher.

[Latindancer]

The guys with machetes must be put to work as nurses, looking after their victims in some way. Or better still, hard at work doing something else, with their earnings given to the victims, with whom they have regular meetings in order to repeatedly apologise.

[Switch]

The guys with machetes must be put to work as nurses, looking after their victims in some way. Or better still, hard at work doing something else, with their earnings given to the victims, with whom they have regular meetings in order to repeatedly apologise.

And another ill thought solution from the mental midget who dispensed medical advice based on the fact his dad was a chemist.
Now you want untrained thugs used as medical professionals. Sheer fucking genius that one.

[Maanaam]

I have studied learning needs analysis at degree level because it was a big part of my job.

Good for you. What's that got to do with me not saying...

The application and strength of the measure applied according to learning needs is

?

I didn’t miss anything Manny. I merely stated why your system would fail

Yes you did miss my point entirely because the system you're talking about is not the system I suggested. In fact, I didn't suggest a system, just that the current system be applied more effectively.

[tomcat]

It has been estimated that 40% of Australian inmates have some form of mental illness. And if they didn't when they were incarcerated, they sure would have been pushed over the edge after going in...

...please: leave the Aboriginals out of this...

[Switch]

Good for you. What's that got to do with me not saying...?



Yes you did miss my point entirely because the system you're talking about is not the system I suggested. In fact, I didn't suggest a system, just that the current system be applied more effectively.

Semantics and serious misdirection on your part.
You suggest that people respond to different stimulus in the way they learn. No way can this be applied to criminal rehabilitation, because the public would not accept the unequal treatment of offenders
.
By default, you support the status quo, so quit wriggling. That system is equally ineffective due to judicial interpretations. It is however, all we’ve got.

Until now I have done you the courtesy of treating your responses as if you were an adult. As this is clearly not the case and there is a huge difference between what you say and what you actually mean, I will respond in kind.
I can explain this to you, unfortunately, I can’t understand it for you.

[tomcat]

the public would not accept the unequal treatment of offenders

...actually, the public accepts unequal treatment of offenders all the time (at least in the US)...

That system is equally ineffective due to judicial interpretations

...such interpretations lead to unequal treatment, of course (in case Manny needed a clarification of your post)...

[Hugh Cow]

First it is a fact that the strong will always prey on the weak. Our capitalist society is based around this principle where the (financially) strong prey on the (financially) weak. This works its way down to the poor, having no financial power, who use violence to prey on the weak.
If we could remove poverty that would reduce one of the big reasons for crime and violence. This will not happen in our current capitalistic financial system.
Much more needs to be done to improve facilities for the mentally ill.
Drugs and addiction should be a health issue and not one of law enforcement. Drugs should be legalised in a controlled way and the billions saved on law enforcement spent on drug education and rehabilitation.
These measures IMO would greatly reduce crime and the number of perpetrators however we will never stop crime. There are a large number of criminals that enjoy crime and will never hold a "normal" job in their entire life and there are too many people that do enjoy violence. We have the military where we promote violence to defend ourselves against other violent "tribes" Not much has changed in 200,000 years apart from more sophisticated ways to kill and maim each other.
We are by nature a very violent species and we will need to advance a lot further down the evolutionary trail before that will ever change.

[tomcat]

We are by nature a very violent species and we will need to advance a lot further down the evolutionary trail before that will ever change.

...to be fair, so is every flesh-eating species and, under certain circumstances, even the ruminants are known to trample the grass...

[Switch]

First it is a fact that the strong will always prey on the weak. Our capitalist society is based around this principle where the (financially) strong prey on the (financially) weak. This works its way down to the poor, having no financial power, who use violence to prey on the weak.
If we could remove poverty that would reduce one of the big reasons for crime and violence. This will not happen in our current capitalistic financial system.
Much more needs to be done to improve facilities for the mentally ill.
Drugs and addiction should be a health issue and not one of law enforcement. Drugs should be legalised in a controlled way and the billions saved on law enforcement spent on drug education and rehabilitation.
These measures IMO would greatly reduce crime and the number of perpetrators however we will never stop crime. There are a large number of criminals that enjoy crime and will never hold a "normal" job in their entire life and there are too many people that do enjoy violence. We have the military where we promote violence to defend ourselves against other violent "tribes" Not much has changed in 200,000 years apart from more sophisticated ways to kill and maim each other.
We are by nature a very violent species and we will need to advance a lot further down the evolutionary trail before that will ever change.

I do agree with most of what you say, but you might want to reconsider some parts. Have you seen the income streams generated by the legalization of marijuana? There needs to be some control over how those funds are directed in order to curb the criminal financial opportunities that might arise.
Going from drug baron to city mayor, could have unintended consequences perhaps?

[tomcat]

Going from drug baron to city mayor, could have unintended consequences perhaps?

...tRump is proof of that...

[Maanaam]

You suggest that people respond to different stimulus in the way they learn.

Yes, and it was an example of people being different and thus requiring different approaches in various matters. That's all I said about learning. It was an example, for the third time.

No way can this be applied to criminal rehabilitation

I didn't say that. For the third time let me put it to you in simpler terms: JUST AS people respond differently to teaching methods, people will respond differently to punishments/rehabilitation methods. Note the words "JUST AS" and think about what that conveys to the following words.

Semantics and serious misdirection on your part.

Not at all. Just because you can't comprehend an analogy and conflate the analogous situations in your mind does not mean I'm wriggling at all. You've seriously not read and comprehended my first post, ignored my second one pointing out that you didn't, and now blame me!

By default, you support the status quo,

Neither did I do that. On the contrary, I said the status quo has the ability but not the desire to use the treatments efficiently. Your lack of comprehension is a worry, seriously.

there is a huge difference between what you say and what I think you said..

FTFY, in which case I agree.

unfortunately, I can’t understand it

I know, but I've been patient in trying to point out that what you conflated in you mind was not what I wrote. Never mind, it seems beyond you...go and have a nice cup of tea and a nap.
Just as in the West Papua thread, you resort to personal insults when you flounder in a discussion. Adult, eh?