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  1. #301
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    What we want is eradication of poverty (and we are well on the way to achieving that globally).
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    Inequality is part of free market economics.

    Globalised free market economics leads to wealth generation (for everyone, even poor people and poor countries) and is the best economic system we have discovered to date.

    It is better to have a few very rich people and many moderately comfortable people (inequality) than everyone mired in poverty (equality).
    Unfortunately for the masses on this planet they have not reached their "poverty level" yet. Billions go to sleep hungry , all around the world.

    As depicted in the current system of the alleged "free market". You have not noticed the stalling/drop in living standards in the "moderately comfortable" middle classes of your own and other "developed" countries. Their only growth market is credit debt derived and that bill is becoming unsustainable.

    The "free markets" of the past were always a slave and master construct. Do as we say or we starve/bomb/exterminate you It was and is not a viable future system.

    It is better to raise everyone to a "moderate" standard of living as soon as possible. Otherwise people look to move to where they "believe" paradise exists. They are, today, causing untold mayhem. Much better to improve their lot where they originate from rather than stripping everything of values in the current master/slave system.

    Some have seen the light, others still insist of being in control or the electric switch, the water tap, the education, the food supply .... because as some admit here "We have a bigger gun than you". A barbaric system which needs demolishing.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  2. #302
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farangrakthai View Post
    they're the ones who are being annoying in thailand, etc...
    Move elsewhere if you find it "annoying" or use your privileged position to buy a better "experience" whenever it becomes tedious.

  3. #303
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    Present day capitalism is not far from feudallism. Waltons earning billions a year income combined while their employees are struggling along with govt aid.
    Same as Amazon or any number of other booming industries.

    The Foxconn plant in China has safety nets wrapped around it to catch jumpers. Maybe not poverty but not much of life.

  4. #304
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    ohoh, so eloquently put.

  5. #305
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    Extreme poverty around the globe has declined sharply in the past 3 decades. The greatest increases in quality of living in recent decades have been in the world's poorest nations.

    The lower echelons of the worlds richer nations have seen relatively modest gains in recent times (they already saw enormous gains in the middle of the 20th century). But they are still gains so it is still good news. There have been no drops in living standards or measurable wealth in any demographic of any country.

    Health, wealth, median incomes, median lifespans, infant survival rates have all increased either modestly or sharply in every demographic of every country. This is partly due to the end of failed economic ideologies like communism but it is also due to the technological advances that have allowed more benefit to be squeezed from the same amount of resources and due to the expansion of globalised trade which generates the wealth that can then be shared. The sharing does not have to be equal for the system to be working.

    There will always be a troop of internet muppets who are afflicted by a puzzling fear and hatred of human progress and the benefits it brings to the lives of real humans everywhere but the contrast between their perception and the reality of what is actually happening in the world could not be more stark.

  6. #306
    last farang standing
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    Interesting post loop. ohoh as well. You both make some cogent points. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between. I can see merit in both sides and I normally hate to be sitting on the fence.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    Extreme poverty around the globe has declined sharply in the past 3 decades. The greatest increases in quality of living in recent decades have been in the world's poorest nations.

    The lower echelons of the worlds richer nations have seen relatively modest gains in recent times (they already saw enormous gains in the middle of the 20th century). But they are still gains so it is still good news. There have been no drops in living standards or measurable wealth in any demographic of any country.

    Health, wealth, median incomes, median lifespans, infant survival rates have all increased either modestly or sharply in every demographic of every country. This is partly due to the end of failed economic ideologies like communism but it is also due to the technological advances that have allowed more benefit to be squeezed from the same amount of resources and due to the expansion of globalised trade which generates the wealth that can then be shared. The sharing does not have to be equal for the system to be working.

    There will always be a troop of internet muppets who are afflicted by a puzzling fear and hatred of human progress and the benefits it brings to the lives of real humans everywhere but the contrast between their perception and the reality of what is actually happening in the world could not be more stark.
    Loopy what would happen if we took China out of the equation?


    Here's an interesting actual from 4 yrs ago

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...590729809.html

    And if we look at little nearer to the present day

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.6cd9ef49ae00

    And then if we really want to go look into the poverty lie why not visit here.

    Poverty & Equity Data Portal

  8. #308
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    sorry can't edit, actual should say article

  9. #309
    A Cockless Wonder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chico View Post
    Here's an interesting actual from 4 yrs ago
    Part of the reason why people believe negative news stories like these about things like poverty levels is due to an inbuilt cognitive weakness in humans. We like to hear that the world is getting worse. It appeals to a deep seated psychological fatalism in many of us. We also read bad news stories in the news every day (since bad news sells - if it bleeds it leads) which reinforces these beliefs without putting them in perspective in terms of long term trends.

    We also put more stock in pundits who espouse negative views vs those who espouse positive views. We have a natural miscalibrated tendency to think that people who are telling us bad things have the low down and people who are telling us good things are naive.

    That psychological miscalibration has a reinforcing tendency to encourage pundits (who have a vested interest in people believing what they say) to tell us bad news stories rather than good news stories.

    If you ask the average punter if their nation will be in a better or worse place economically in 5 years time 90% of them will say that it will be in a worse place.

    If you ask the same punters if they think that they personally will be economically better or worse off in 5 years time 90% of them will tell you that they think they will be better off in 5 years time.

    They cannot be right about both opinions and 90% of the time they are wrong about the 1st opinion.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    Part of the reason why people believe negative news stories like these about things like poverty levels is due to an inbuilt cognitive weakness in humans. We like to hear that the world is getting worse. It appeals to a deep seated psychological fatalism in many of us. We also read bad news stories in the news every day (since bad news sells - if it bleeds it leads) which reinforces these beliefs without putting them in perspective in terms of long term trends.

    We also put more stock in pundits who espouse negative views vs those who espouse positive views. We have a natural miscalibrated tendency to think that people who are telling us bad things have the low down and people who are telling us good things are naive.

    That psychological miscalibration has a reinforcing tendency to encourage pundits (who have a vested interest in people believing what they say) to tell us bad news stories rather than good news stories.

    If you ask the average punter if their nation will be in a better or worse place economically in 5 years time 90% of them will say that it will be in a worse place.

    If you ask the same punters if they think that they personally will be economically better or worse off in 5 years time 90% of them will tell you that they think they will be better off in 5 years time.

    They cannot be right about both opinions and 90% of the time they are wrong about the 1st opinion.
    Loopy have you researched any of the points in the article?

    How about they ain't negative but factual events what happened over the period of time.

    Would that disrupt you nice little fantasy of the cottage with the lovely rose garden setting?

  11. #311
    Thailand Expat tomcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    due to an inbuilt cognitive weakness in humans.
    ...I assume this means just the ones you happen to know...
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    We like to hear that the world is getting worse
    ...that would be you and your friends then...
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    We also put more stock in pundits who espouse negative views vs those who espouse positive views.
    ...you and your negative mouse, I suppose...
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    If you ask the average punter if their nation will be in a better or worse place economically in 5 years time 90% of them will say that it will be in a worse place.
    ...back to your friends again, are we?
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    They cannot be right about both opinions and 90% of the time they are wrong about the 1st opinion.
    ...utter nonsense...and you were doing so well...

  12. #312
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between
    Always does. Nice thread HC.

  13. #313
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    ^^TC been at the sherry decanter again!

    I am curious to know what a 'negative mouse' is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between.
    OK but it is statistically unlikely to lie close to chico judging by past performance!

    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Nice thread HC.
    Yeah, this was all your fault Hugh!

  14. #314
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    Loopy and judging by you're posting you've been sucking George Soros's cock.

    Come back to us when you've done some research on the subject and not got all your info from the world bank.

  15. #315
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    Looper is pretty much on the money.
    His post did omit one very real and important fact. In nations where the education of women, especially in family planning, has resulted in improved mortality rates and reduced family sizes. These key areas always help reducing poverty, particularly in third world, and developing countries.
    Chico. If you want to research something beneficial, just have a look at what Bangladesh has achieved, just by educating women in family planning.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Looper is pretty much on the money.
    His post did omit one very real and important fact. In nations where the education of women, especially in family planning, has resulted in improved mortality rates and reduced family sizes. These key areas always help reducing poverty, particularly in third world, and developing countries.
    Chico. If you want to research something beneficial, just have a look at what Bangladesh has achieved, just by educating women in family planning.
    Bangla Deshi family planning video.


    Colonialism.... a comparison-giphy-gif
    Attached Images Attached Images Colonialism.... a comparison-giphy-gif 

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Looper is pretty much on the money.
    Except for one small (sic) problem. The global free market (which does not really exist) he champions is not sustainable. The endless race for increased profit is destroying the world that we live in and rapidly depleting it of minerals. That coupled with the rapid population boom and the further industrialization of India, China and the third world it will only get worse.

    IMHO incredibly one sided and naive take. The capitalist system will be the demise of humanity not its savior.

  18. #318
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    I agree, mostly.

    Debt fulfilled desire I suggest is our human weak spot. Raising people from poverty in a sustainable fashion will reduce the need to move to find "paradise". Enabling local production access to an accessible market will produce local wealth, along with a % to any middle men. The logistics of that continued growth is the, current, target for some.

    The "industrialisation" of developing markets has been a requirement historically. Becoming more important now as some are using the "national security" blanket to stop the developing markets becoming developed markets. The population growth in developed markets continues to diminish due to wealth, education, food and water availability and personal choices. I suspect once these are available, to all, there will be no requirement to produce 3 or 4 surviving children to ensure survival in ones old age.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    The endless race for increased profit is destroying the world that we live in and rapidly depleting it of minerals.
    It is true we are still pulling minerals out of the ground. Partly because it is cheaper to do so than to recycle. But this a technological problem not an existential one. We will figure out more cost efective ways of recycling stuff and our rate of mineral extraction will decline and may eventually stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    That coupled with the rapid population boom
    The population boom scare stories of the 1970s navaer came to fruition. We figured out ways of making farming more efficient to feed more people with less land. Peak population has ben reached in many advanced countries and their population is steady or falling. The developing countries are catching up fast and so global peak population may not be far away. Once health standards are raised and infant mortality is reduced (and folk become more educated) people stop having so many children.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    further industrialization of India, China and the third world it will only get worse.
    Industrialisation is not the enemy. It is the key to the eradication of poverty. The challenge is to do it in an environmentally sustainable way. The wealth that industrialisation brings gives civilisation the power to tackle challenges like climate change. I think we will meet the climate challenge successfully through combination of technological innovation (reducing carbon being put into the atmosphere and even removing existing carbon) and cleaner energy sources. Winding back the wealth generating effect of industrialisation is not an option. Innovation in energy production is the key to tackling climate change.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    We will figure out more cost efective ways of recycling stuff and our rate of mineral extraction will decline and may eventually stop.
    Really? Not all minerals can be recycled first of all. Many of them are consumed and that is why the the climate is warming. We may become more efficient at recycling but that would be a reality too late in the game. Mostly everything has been commodified at this point and the next big thing that your "global free markets" will try to commodify is water. Yes wars will be fought over it in the near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    The population boom scare stories of the 1970s navaer came to fruition.
    Complete and utter nonsense. The UN projects that over one billion additional people will added to the planet over then next decade and then by another billion by 2050. Almost all of it in the worlds poorest countries. If that is not a boom than I do not know what is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    The wealth that industrialisation brings gives civilisation the power to tackle challenges like climate change.
    The developed nations already have the wealth to tackle things like climate change but that is not the point. It is that the countries I mentioned will contribute a massive amount of carbon into the atmosphere as they industrialize at a time when the planet needs to be reducing carbon emissions. Many scientists already agree that it may be to late to stop sea level rise and the other disasters that are looking to became a reality much sooner than many anticipate.

    You see looper the reality is that capitalism and industrialization are not the solution to the current issues the world faces they are a part of the problem.

    I have not even mentioned the other factors that will be in play, one of them being automation and the jobs that will no longer be available in almost every nation rich and poor across the planet. Mankind will have to find a solution that will go past consumption and profit if it is to survive the challenges that are coming much sooner than most even realize.

  21. #321
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    You are a pessimist snub. Looper and I are optimists. Anything less is not really helpful.

    I remain convinced that science, and the education of women in developing countries, are the keys to a sustainable future.

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Anything less is not really helpful.
    If someone is not pointing out the eventual realities the world and the people on it will inevitably have to face then we are going to have some very shocked awakenings in the very near future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    I remain convinced that science, and the education of women in developing countries, are the keys to a sustainable future.
    Interesting that technology is not on your short list unless you lump that under science which would be a mistake.

  23. #323
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    he education of women in developing countries
    Why just the women?

  24. #324
    A Cockless Wonder
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Yes wars will be fought over it in the near future.
    Apocalyptic doom-sayers have been ten-a-penny since the start of civilisation. The feed of psychological weaknesses of humans like ghouls from the flesh of the dead. They are virtually always wrong. Have you read the book Famine 1975? Some muppet back in 1967 was saying exactly what you are saying in 2018!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine...ill_Survive%3F

    Once you have finished that try Population Bomb also published in the late 60s

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb

    These apocalypses did not happen and almost certainly will not happen in the future.

    Judging by any meaningful metrics on any of the meaningful measures of quality of life we have every reason to be optimistic about the future for humankind.

    We must be doing something right because all the useful metrics say that the lives humans have been improving consistently over time, especially since the Western Enlightenment and its associated technological revolutions and most noticeably since the world entered its most peaceful and war-free era in history - during the 2nd half of the 20th century.

    Sure we discover some man-made setbacks along the way like climate change which we then need to tackle but we have the knowledge, skills and ingenuity (and most crucially of all the wealth) to meet these challenges. And these manageable setbacks are against a backdrop od massive gains in wealth and quality of life for all humans.

    The fact that things have been going well is not a reason to be complacent. We should try and work out the reasons why things have been going well so we can do more of the right thing.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Why just the women?
    In case anyone else missed it: Women and their continuing education, especially in family planning and contraception, will reduce family sizes and improve mortality rates. The reason for larger families is firmly mired in the past. Understanding that, and doing something about it is essential.

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