Will Human beings ever conquer tribalism?

[Hugh Cow]

After spending the great majority of my time in various places on planet earth, I have seen tribalism alive and well everywhere I have traveled without exception. We all seem to exhibit this trait in various ways. Africa is probably the place we immediately think of tribalism and although this is true in my experience of Africa, It is true all around the world.
Soccer, i believe is a good example of this and I don't mean just the hooligans. The sense of belonging to one team, us against them, seems to be a unifying force between supporters and this applies to every football code.
In India we have the caste system. In Britain and europe we have the aristocracy, the upper class and the working class.
There are many sub classes that many people like to pidgeon whole themselves in whether it be the arts, intellectually, politically etc. Religious dogma and fanaticism is just another form of apartheid that divides us as does race.
Is there something in our psyche that causes us to naturally mistrust someone who looks racially different and gravitate to one of our "own"?
Is it programmed in our genes? Is it genetic preservation which causes many of us to gravitate to our own?
Look at Thailand where some look down on people depending what part of the country they were born in.
I once went to an exclusive shopping area in Bangkok. The University educated Thai woman I was with confessed to me she felt a little uncomfortable around so many hiso people. Thoughts Anyone?

[Maanaam]

Is it programmed in our genes?

I doubt it. Racism and bigotry, "team spirit" and camaraderie, are learnt attitudes.
If it was genetic, there would be no inter-racial marriages, since marriage is a choice made with thought AND emotion.

[Hugh Cow]

^^
Could that not be because we are imprinted to spread our "superior" genes over as many people as we can?

[PeeCoffee]

Even chimpanzees are tribal (ie: extended family)...turf wars one might say.

Happy "holidays", Hugh...which basically are a tribal thing too, eh.

[Looper]

Will Human beings ever conquer tribalism?

You are asking if we 'will ever' conquer tribalism and then pointing to various extant primitive societies as evidence of our failure.

Look around you and read a news website. Modern civilisation and globalised society is humanity's blindingly obvious victory over his own innate tribalism.

We are exhorted to stamp out racism at every turn because we have used our intellect to overcome our tribalism.

Is there something in our psyche that causes us to naturally mistrust someone who looks racially different and gravitate to one of our "own"?

Yes there is but we use our cognitive rational reason to overcome these primitive feelings and build a fair society.

[Hugh Cow]

Happy "holidays", Hugh...which basically are a tribal thing too, eh.

Merry Christmas PC.

[Maanaam]

^^
Could that not be because we are imprinted to spread our "superior" genes over as many people as we can?

Hmm...interesting until you consider that marriage involves a woman too. Your idea is male-centric and doesn't quite make good reason. It did at first glance, though.

[David48atTD]

Tribalism rocks ... so does my 'tribal' football team*.

Hugh, you're an Aussie ... consider one of the longest racial sub-set ... the Australian Aboriginal ... 40,000 years ... they have their 'mob', their tribe.

Then there is the superficial differential of us white folk vs those who claim to be of Aboriginal decent.


BTW, if ever the Martians invade, tribalism takes on a world context ...


* Brisbane Broncos

.

[thaimeme]

We all remain tribal and class driven in one degree or another.

Instinctively inherited in our DNA.
One might observe that all life forms are of this nature.

Nothing distinctive, exceptional or different regarding our species that we might overcome such intrinsic traits.



Conquer...??

[Hugh Cow]

We all remain tribal and class driven in one degree or another.

Instinctively inherited in our DNA.
One might observe that all life forms are of this nature.

Nothing distinctive, exceptional or different regarding our species that we might overcome such intrinsic traits.



Conquer...??

If tribalism is imprinted in our DNA are we destined to carry this tribal instinct forever or will our intellect eventually overcome this?

[David48atTD]

If tribalism is imprinted in our DNA are we destined to carry this tribal instinct forever or will our intellect eventually overcome this?

Hummm Hugh ... your base position comes across that 'tribalism' is an 'inferior' position.

I'm a believer that the sum of the parts is greater then the collective worth of the individual parts.

Could a single man ever made it to the moon without a 1,000 men behind him, all being their collective cogs in the machine?

I know, as a man, I'm worth more being part of my immediate Family then a stand alone sheep shagger.


The only member (who's not in Jail) I've seen posting here who is a genuine outsider is Mr Earl* ... he has a mindset beholden only to himself.

He's different, not bad, not good ... but more then a few standard deviations outside the norm. If he lived in Brisbane, he'd be in Fortitude Valley.


* thaimeme is left field (and I enjoy reading his posts) ... but he's still inside the ballpark.

.

[Looper]

If tribalism is imprinted in our DNA are we destined to carry this tribal instinct forever or will our intellect eventually overcome this?

Yes it is in our DNA but we have already overcome it using reason and intellect.

There will always be a conflict between the instincts of the animal that we evolved as (and will remain as) and the morally ideal behaviour that we aspire to based on reasoned and democratically agreed principles.

Once the principles are enshrined in laws and drummed into young humans from an early age (as they are now) we have already effectively triumphed over the moral shortcomings of our primal animal nature.

[CaptainNemo]

If tribalism is imprinted in our DNA are we destined to carry this tribal instinct forever or will our intellect eventually overcome this?

Yes it is in our DNA but we have already overcome it using reason and intellect.

There will always be a conflict between the instincts of the animal that we evolved as (and will remain as) and the morally ideal behaviour that we aspire to based on reasoned and democratically agreed principles.

Once the principles are enshrined in laws and drummed into young humans from an early age (as they are now) we have already effectively triumphed over the moral shortcomings of our primal animal nature.

No.

Morality doesn't exist without reference to a deterministic modal where the primary drive is not so much a "decision" of "will", but more of a chemical reaction; like rust.
Hence this notion of "morality triumphing over our primal animal nature" makes no sense at all, because morality is essentially inclusive fitness in terms of the survival of a group, which is the vehicle by which social species self-form.
The "reason and intellect" and "moral" software that is running on this hardware is not axiomatically justified as righteous - it's as if it's an organism itself seeking self-preservation by trying to rationalise away the gaping holes and inconsistencies in its case. In short, it's recent, short-term, and can and will be replaced, as it replaced something before it... these "moral" systems are aspects of culture, as culture is an aspect of ethnicity, it only makes sense in its time and place, it is not the "answer". This morality is an extrinsic mutable thing, not intrinsic like whats in our DNA; and the notion that it could and should override the intrinsic deterministic "moral" system just doesn't work. It's the baby boomers generation believing their own marketing.

There is scientific research showing that babies exhibit ethnocentrism - shying away from adults of different ethnic groups - this is nature. I'm not going to repost it, but there's a ton of research demonstrating that ethnocentrism (i.e.: "tribalism") is intrinsic... it's not going anywhere, and it would save a lot of trouble if lefties would stop trying to fight it... and just learned to live with it - tolerance!

James Grier Miller, Living Systems (1978)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...judice&f=false

[blue]

Is it programmed in our genes?

of course its genetically programmed, as its so beneficially to help and support your own family
if you didn't have that trait, you would be less successful and so less likely to have descendants.
And we all have 2 parents 4 grandparents
2, 4, 6 , 16 etc
keep doubling and very soon there is not enough ancestors for everyone to have a unique set
in other words people of the same race have virtually the same ancestors,
so its natural and instinctive that we want to help each other more than non family members .
Of course globalists hate that , they only care for money
hence the demonisation of family/race

[Looper]

If tribalism is imprinted in our DNA are we destined to carry this tribal instinct forever or will our intellect eventually overcome this?

Yes it is in our DNA but we have already overcome it using reason and intellect.

There will always be a conflict between the instincts of the animal that we evolved as (and will remain as) and the morally ideal behaviour that we aspire to based on reasoned and democratically agreed principles.

Once the principles are enshrined in laws and drummed into young humans from an early age (as they are now) we have already effectively triumphed over the moral shortcomings of our primal animal nature.

No.

Morality doesn't exist without reference to a deterministic modal where the primary drive is not so much a "decision" of "will", but more of a chemical reaction; like rust.
Hence this notion of "morality triumphing over our primal animal nature" makes no sense at all, because morality is essentially inclusive fitness in terms of the survival of a group, which is the vehicle by which social species self-form.
The "reason and intellect" and "moral" software that is running on this hardware is not axiomatically justified as righteous - it's as if it's an organism itself seeking self-preservation by trying to rationalise away the gaping holes and inconsistencies in its case. In short, it's recent, short-term, and can and will be replaced, as it replaced something before it... these "moral" systems are aspects of culture, as culture is an aspect of ethnicity, it only makes sense in its time and place, it is not the "answer". This morality is an extrinsic mutable thing, not intrinsic like whats in our DNA; and the notion that it could and should override the intrinsic deterministic "moral" system just doesn't work. It's the baby boomers generation believing their own marketing.

There is scientific research showing that babies exhibit ethnocentrism - shying away from adults of different ethnic groups - this is nature. I'm not going to repost it, but there's a ton of research demonstrating that ethnocentrism (i.e.: "tribalism") is intrinsic... it's not going anywhere, and it would save a lot of trouble if lefties would stop trying to fight it... and just learned to live with it - tolerance!

James Grier Miller, Living Systems (1978)
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...judice&f=false

Ummm... can you say that again like what you just said except but a bit simpler?

Yes babies exhibit ethnocentric traits but when they start to exercise their powers of reasoning and learning we teach them that we have arbitrarily and democratically decided to treat individuals of all races equally and they have to do that too. Regardless of whether or not there may be tiny differences in the mean intelligence or other behavioural traits of the races. The overlap is large enough that there is no moral justification for treating individuals differently based on their ethnicity.

[VocalNeal]

Living in Asia I think I have escaped tribalism. I live outside the society of whichever country I live in and as such or to an extent no longer have to deal with a the social and cultural mores that surround me.

I don't support any premier league soccer club. Don't really care who wins the cricket or rugby.

I don't feel tribal at all.

[Neverna]

If we accept that "We are exhorted to stamp out racism at every turn", and we still have to teach babies "that we have arbitrarily and democratically decided to treat individuals of all races equally and they have to do that too", it seems racism hasn't yet been conquered. It is a work in progress.

[Looper]

We will always have to teach babies this stuff because our DNA makes us naturally tribal and distrustful of other races.

There will always be a conflict between our nature and our moral convictions.

The triumph is that we have, broadly speaking, reached democratic agreement about what those moral convictions are w.r.t. race relations.

i.e. all individuals should be treated equally without prejudicial regard for their racial background when it comes to education, work and social opportunities.

[blue]

Living in Asia I think I have escaped tribalism. I live outside the society of whichever country I live in and as such or to an extent no longer have to deal with a the social and cultural mores that surround me.

I don't support any premier league soccer club. Don't really care who wins the cricket or rugby.

I don't feel tribal at all.

fact you are posting here suggests otherwise

[blue]

i.e. all individuals should be treated equally without prejudicial regard for their racial background when it comes to education, work and social opportunities.

so no country borders then ?

[Looper]

Well modern moral egalitarian ideals are a luxury of developed civilisation. You have to be in the club to enjoy the benefits. So country borders have to stay for now I reckon. The developing world will catch up with the west in time and then they too can afford the luxury of egalitarianism and perhaps international borders will even one day be historical curiosities rather than barriers essential to the proper and orderly functioning of the global village.

[Mr Earl]

The easy cure would be to shut off the power and petrol..

[Hugh Cow]

Living in Asia I think I have escaped tribalism. I live outside the society of whichever country I live in and as such or to an extent no longer have to deal with a the social and cultural mores that surround me.

I don't support any premier league soccer club. Don't really care who wins the cricket or rugby.

I don't feel tribal at all.

Neal, the fact that you are now in Asia, you are now deemed a foreigner be it farang or other term. Doesn't that mean you have left your tribe for another tribe where you are now the"outsider?"

[David48atTD]

Living in Asia I think I have escaped tribalism. I live outside the society of whichever country I live in and as such or to an extent no longer have to deal with a the social and cultural mores that surround me.

I don't support any premier league soccer club. Don't really care who wins the cricket or rugby.

I don't feel tribal at all.

Neal, the fact that you are now in Asia, you are now deemed a foreigner be it farang or other term. Doesn't that mean you have left your tribe for another tribe where you are now the"outsider?"

Actually, I was interested (and surprised) also to read VocalVeil's comments.
I hope he expands on those comments further.

.

[lob]

[quote=David48atTD;3423810]Tribalism rocks ... so does my 'tribal' football team*.



BTW, if ever the Martians invade, tribalism takes on a world context ...


take this on board looper. every speices adopts,,,, birds of a feather etc etc,,, thats also in our dna.