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  1. #1
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    Should illegal immigrants have the rights of a citizen?

    Is an illegal immigrant convicted of serial drugs trafficking offences being victimised by being sent to jail on the grounds that the alternative, probation, instantly places him in breach by virtue of being in the country illegally, thereby compelling the probation service to arrest and incarcerate him for the duration of his probation period?

    This is one of the latest situations puzzling legal bods in the US, after a judge sentenced a two-time coke trafficker to a year in prison rather than 2 years probation, because the probation alternative would effectively mean he is arrested and sent to prison anyway, for two years rather than one, thus creating grounds for appeal.

    The immigrant's attorneys, paid for by non other than the NCCL, argue that as he was effectively allowed into the country due to the US's lax border security, he should be afforded all rights due to a US citizen in regard to criminal offences. Don't know the technical issues, but it sure sounds as though they're saying if the bank's doors are open anyone should be allowed to enter and rob it.


    Yesterday's enigma concerned an illegal Mexican earmarked for deportation, arguing that the US authorities are in breach of her human rights, seeing as they allowed her by default to enter the country by not securing their southern border.

  2. #2
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    Update: The Court of Appeals has ruled in the context of sentencing that the judge should not have been influenced by the fact that the convicted was an illegal alien, unless of course the sentence included deportation before or after a prison term. It was mentioned also that as the judge could not properly impose probation as that would lead to arrest and imprisonment, his choices of the three are narrowed down to prison or deportation.

    Though I missed the early part of the reasoning behind the Appeals ruling, it seemed based on convoluted principles (deliberately, to feed future lawyer generations, and or to undermine law enforcement?), with the deportation option offering the illegal automatic grounds for appeal.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by keda
    two-time coke trafficker
    Was even considered for Probation? WTF? Where was this judge when I was attending the courts on a regular basis?

  4. #4
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    One of the few things that I agree with Ann Coulter on is that II's convicted of a crime should do their time, then automatically be deported.

  5. #5
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    Whatever the arguments for sealing borders, and can't see the US rounding up and deporting the millions of illegals anytime soon, if they are there to better themselves and give their family a life then it is perfectly reasonable to expect them to comply with the laws of the land, knuckle down and get on with it.

    As to the human rights squawkers, illegal immigrants are by implication illegally in the country, which means they do not automatically enjoy the same status as those in the country legally just as we do not automatically enjoy the same status of citizens in any country we choose to visit.

    Still, though American generosity affords them a far better quality of life than they could dream of back home, the simple fact is they do not have a right to be in the country and should be thankful for the mercy of being ignored by the authorities.

    Staying clean also gives them a better chance of becoming American citizens at some future time, which should be considered a priceless legacy for not just them but their children and theirs. Much fairer than compromising the priceless opportunity by provoking confrontation secure in the knowledge that they can fall back on the new-age culture of screaming foul when it goes wrong, and that there are battalions of career vocalists more than willing to campaign in their behalf.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by keda View Post

    This is one of the latest situations puzzling legal bods in the US, after a judge sentenced a two-time coke trafficker to a year in prison .
    A year for traffiicking cocaine... either it is some lad punting five bags on the street corner or he is a big time rat. Mass importation of drugs will get you life in the US (prison system).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    One of the few things that I agree with Ann Coulter on is that II's convicted of a crime should do their time, then automatically be deported.
    Is she the Nazi, book writing, pin up? What are her books like?
    Last edited by mad_dog; 25-08-2007 at 10:13 PM.

  8. #8
    Newbie BoredRigid's Avatar
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    The racsist yanks are at it again...

    I'm going back to my spelling class.

    Leave me alone. I'm trying to get my posts up. Reasonable comment will come after I've reached twenty...

  9. #9
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    Illegal immigrants have one inaleable right denied citizens. That of deportation , though there has got to be some political whack job out there who thinks felons with the wrong skin colour or whose name ends in a vowel should be stripped of their citizenship and sent off to wherever their great grandfather came from.

    Whether prison should precede deportation is a pragmatic issue.

    It is not clear whether this "two-time trafficker" was up on two charges or it was a second offence. The former suggests he was getting off light with a year (and they don't even serve that do they ?). The latter merits some serious questions for the law-and-order Republican bullshitters. They've had 50% possession of the White House recently haven't they ?

    The notion of probation makes me smile. "You are here illegally , you have no right to be here , we should deport your arse but we have decided you may not leave the city limits for two years without permission from your probation officer". You gotta laugh !

    Did someone once say "Only in America" ?


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoredRigid
    The racsist yanks are at it again...
    What, exactly?

  11. #11
    Thailand Expat terry57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by friscofrankie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BoredRigid
    The racsist yanks are at it again...
    What, exactly?

    dont worry frank,

    the fellas bored cant you see that?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathairCeann View Post
    Illegal immigrants have one inaleable right denied citizens. That of deportation , though there has got to be some political whack job out there who thinks felons with the wrong skin colour or whose name ends in a vowel should be stripped of their citizenship and sent off to wherever their great grandfather came from.
    If a citizen chooses to cede citizenship and all that goes with it for that of another country then so be it, but can't see anyone stripping a citizen of citizenship in lieu of deportation, and in any case quite aside from the legal complexities as a citizen of, say, the US, where could they be deported to?

    Whether prison should precede deportation is a pragmatic issue.
    It does seem pointless but if an imprisonable offence is committed, then it's surely the duty of the legal system to pursue it.

    In this respect if an illegal immigrant offender is simply deported rather than made to serve his term and then deported, surely he is better off than a citizen offending on the same charge, though it could be argued as it often is that a spell in a Western prison is favoured over the same period of freedom back home.


    It is not clear whether this "two-time trafficker" was up on two charges or it was a second offence. The former suggests he was getting off light with a year (and they don't even serve that do they ?). The latter merits some serious questions for the law-and-order Republican bullshitters. They've had 50% possession of the White House recently haven't they ?
    It was a second and separate offence.

    Whilst laws and their application change from admin to admin, this is a cumbersome process rather than constant u-turning every term or two.

    Can't talk for the US political/legal system, but in the UK the civil service is a constant and rules the roost regardless, courteously allowing politicians to believe they're in charge on serious issues. Also, though the Reps are in power today, it may be unfair to to blame either party for causing the rot, as it could well be a former admin that set the course relying on the apathy of future admins to radically alter it.


    The notion of probation makes me smile. "You are here illegally , you have no right to be here , we should deport your arse but we have decided you may not leave the city limits for two years without permission from your probation officer". You gotta laugh !
    There ya go, thinking logically!


    Did someone once say "Only in America" ?
    I'd be very surprised if these and similar legal nuances occur only in the US.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoredRigid View Post
    The racsist yanks are at it again...

    I'm going back to my spelling class.

    Leave me alone. I'm trying to get my posts up. Reasonable comment will come after I've reached twenty...
    Is 20 a significant benchmark? Each post still counts as one, even if its comments are reasonable.

  14. #14
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    Each post viewed by itself was a waste of time, so I merged them.

  15. #15
    Have you got any cheese Thetyim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoredRigid
    Reasonable comment will come after I've reached twenty...
    Are you still at school then?

  16. #16
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    While "trafficking" Is a rather ambiguous term it usually infers import & distribution. The charges would be more precise "Sales of a controlled or illegal substance," "Possesion of controlled substance for the purpose of sales" or "illegal importation" And without even thinking I accepted two-time to mean second conviction.

    usually a fist offense will earn the luck fellow-ette probation with the condition she spend the first 6- 12 months in the custody of the convicting county. generally a second conviction will garner a term of between 2 - 6 years, In some states they are not so lenient. In fact, counties within many states are much tougher than others. Nevada & Texas spring to mind as two of the toughest on drug convictions and many time first time offenders go to the pen.

    This lady is not only an illegal immigrant (must also be second offense there as well, ya think?) but she has been caught and convicted twice of some sort of offense within the distribution chain of cocaine.

    As most cocaine arriving in the states now come in through Mexico, brought by in Mexicans entering the country illegally, one could be excused for thinking that this particular individual's offense might be considered a tad more than a minor infraction. The court handling the case is not described as federal or state supreme court. The federal courts are usually more consistent from region to region and I know that my wife's nephew in 1978 got three years at Mcneil Island for importing 84 grams of heroin. Heroin is not a controlled substance in teh US it is just plain illegal. This was ot only my the nephew's first drug "trafficking offense" It was his first offense of any kind he was 28 years old at the time.

    Without knowing exactly the nature of the two "trafficking" offenses were; I'm not 100% sure but, WHAT THE FUCK IS THE BEEF??? Why would any one be anything other than overjoyed at getting one fucking year? With good time and work time she'll be out well fed and healthy in 9 fucking months.
    Some Facts: After whatever sentence on the first offense, or lack thereof, she was certainly deported.
    Entering the country illegally is a crime and she can be jailed for that.
    She had to have committed the crime of entering the country, illegally, a second time.
    She is convicted a second time for "trafficking" (sales, poss for sales or importing).
    She is not very good at her current job and might think to take up bank robbery or perhaps jewelry store heists on her release. Prostitution comes to mind.
    I find the fact that the discussion is about:
    This is one of the latest situations puzzling legal bods in the US, after a judge sentenced a two-time coke trafficker to a year in prison rather than 2 years probation, because the probation alternative would effectively mean he is arrested and sent to prison anyway, for two years rather than one, thus creating grounds for appeal.
    rather than why isn't she doing five or more years?
    Did she give up some heavies? And if so the lawyers surely would have had to press for residency. Life is cheap as fuck in Mexico and rats do not last an instant. So the idea of trading sources for some light sentencing is kinda out, ain't it?

    If this was a he rather than a 'she' I wonder what the judge would have been thinking? Would probation have even been a glimmer in his eye?
    Last edited by friscofrankie; 25-08-2007 at 11:38 PM.
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty -- T. Jefferson


  17. #17
    Newbie BoredRigid's Avatar
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    Some good points.

  18. #18
    Thailand Expat terry57's Avatar
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    ^
    a rather long post there by frank.

  19. #19
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    If I can be arsed to dig it up, I have an article somewhere about the pressure of the US on the EU to allow Turkey to join. Followed on by the argument that if the US is pressuring the EU to allow Turkey to become a member then the EU should be pressuring the US to open it's doors fully to Mexico.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mad_dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    One of the few things that I agree with Ann Coulter on is that II's convicted of a crime should do their time, then automatically be deported.
    Is she the Nazi, book writing, pin up? What are her books like?
    Thats her Frankie- we have a thread devoted to her in US Issues.
    Her books have all made the NY Times best seller lists, I have little or no intention of reading one though. Her anthology says enough-

    'High Crimes and Misdemeanours: the Case against Bill Clinton.' 1998
    'Slander: Liberal Lies about the American Right.' 2002
    'Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism.' 2003
    'How to Talk to a Liberal (If you Must)' 2004
    'Godless: The Church of Liberalism' 2006
    probes Aliens

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsquirrel View Post
    If I can be arsed to dig it up, I have an article somewhere about the pressure of the US on the EU to allow Turkey to join. Followed on by the argument that if the US is pressuring the EU to allow Turkey to become a member then the EU should be pressuring the US to open it's doors fully to Mexico.
    Wouldn't be surprised if any US pressure on the EU to accept Turkey has something to do with its close proximity to the ME, and conditional upon a separate deal that has Turkey allowing the US a greater presence in the region by way of bases and use of air space.

    Conflict of interests there, because the EU decision makers would organise a communal slitting of throats before opening the doors to Turkey.

  22. #22
    Bounced
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    inaleable right
    We'll have none of those, thanks.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by keda
    Should illegal immigrants have the rights of a citizen?
    No they should be deported, we had a rally in London a couple of months back 20,000 demanding citizenship, An ideal oppotunity to round them up but oh no not us Brits.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by keda
    Wouldn't be surprised if any US pressure on the EU to accept Turkey has something to do with its close proximity to the ME, and conditional upon a separate deal that has Turkey allowing the US a greater presence in the region by way of bases and use of air space. Conflict of interests there, because the EU decision makers would organise a communal slitting of throats before opening the doors to Turkey.
    It was in one of the last three weeks Econmists. Followed on about where does the EU stop? Once Turkey is in do we start to include Pakistan, India. Is there and end to it?

  25. #25
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    Plobrem is Turkey straddles Europe and Asia, they've had a long hard look both ways and decided the life of Reilly is West.

    I don't read the Economist, but if they suggest it's only a matter of time before the EU relents then I would strongly disagree. They may be weak minded, but not basket cases.

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