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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow
    If my memory serves me correctly Pres Yanakovitch
    Who?
    Are you thinking of Weird Al?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neo
    I wonder if any of you know any Russian people or have any source of information on Russia other than whichever flavor of media you consume.
    I know a couple of Russians here in the states, a couple of Ukrainians as well. For that matter I happen to know a few Poles, a Slav or two and even a Czech.

    I have yet to hear one of them say that they are fond of Putin.
    Putin is not a country snub.

    Economic sanctions don't affect Putin.
    Military conflict doesn't affect Putin.

    Russia is country and Russians are people. Economic sanctions affect Russia. Military conflict will affect Russia. Russia is not your enemy.

    How many military bases and manpower deployments does Russia have on the borders of the US.?

    Russia is not the aggressor.

    The media don't want you to see the country, they want you to see the man.. It's easier to demonise a potential adversary that way... and you fall for it every time.

    Just mention his name and the spittle starts flying.

    You're being played.
    Last edited by Neo; 16-02-2017 at 12:57 PM.

  3. #28
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  4. #29
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    Why is there this insatiable need to compare the USA and its failings when other countries and their failings are criticised? The USA and its political and financial dominance as was the UK before it, does not make them the good guys, but compared to many others they are the better guys. In the foreseeable future there is likely to always be a dominant world power and they will fight tooth and nail to stay there as will the USA. Please tell me what country would be better than the USA. China, or Russia? Please don't tell me any country in europe or even the EU they're too busy trying to find a new minority to apologise to.

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    Not sure if you read the OP its about fake news,now here's more info about how the Ukraine has panned out from a German newspaper.

    You may other countries,and media outlets are involved in the ruse.

    Ukraine's forgotten security guarantee: The Budapest Memorandum

    Twenty years ago, Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees from Russia and the West. Today Kyiv feels betrayed - and not merely by Moscow.

    Until recently, the existence of a decades-old Ukraine security guarantee was known only by security experts and some politicians.
    But ever since the Russian annexation of Crimea, Ukraine is now, more than ever recalling that so-called Budapest Memorandum.
    The document was signed on 5 December, 1994 at the summit of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). In it, Ukraine, a nuclear power at that time, voluntarily gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees.
    The US, Great Britain and Russia welcomed the decision of the Kyiv regime to accede to the non-proliferation agreement and pledged, among other things, to respect the independence and "existing borders" of Ukraine.
    The Soviet Union, Belarus and Kazakhstan signed similar memoranda on the same day.
    No black briefcase

    Twenty years ago, the Budapest Memorandum marked the end of many years of negotiations between the successor states of the Soviet Union and leading Western nuclear powers. Ukraine had a special place in the talks.
    After the collapse of the USSR in 1991, the eastern European country inherited 176 strategic and more than 2,500 tactical nuclear missiles. Ukraine at that point had the third-largest arsenal of nuclear weapons in the world after the United States and Russia.
    But Leonid Kravchuk, then the president of Ukraine, told DW that was only formally the case. De facto, Kyiv was powerless.
    "All the control systems were in Russia. The so-called black suitcase with the start button, that was with Russian president Boris Yeltsin."
    Western pressure
    Ukraine could have kept the nuclear weapons, but the price would have been enormous, Kravchuk says. Though the carrier rockets were manufactured in the southern Ukrainian city of Dnipropetrovsk, the nuclear warheads were not. It would have been too expensive for Ukraine to manufacture and maintain them on its own.
    "It would have cost us $65 billion (53 billion euros), and the state coffers were empty," Kravchuk said.
    Additionally, the West threatened Ukraine with isolation since the missiles were supposedly aimed at the United States. Therefore, "the only possible decision" was to give up the weapons, according to Kravchuk.
    The Ukrainian missiles were either transported to Russia or destroyed. As compensation, the regime in Kyiv received financial assistance from the United States, cheap energy supplies from Russia, and security guarantees that were enshrined in the Budapest Memorandum.

    Admittedly, these guarantees were only a formality, since no sanctions mechanisms had been established at the time.
    "Nowhere does it say that if a country violates this memorandum, that the others will attack militarily," said Gerhard Simon, Eastern Europe expert at the University of Cologne.
    German journalist and Ukraine expert Winfried Schneider-Deters agrees, telling DW, "The agreement is not worth the paper on which it was written."
    Russia rejects accusations
    As recently as August, however, Kyiv was still requesting negotiations with the signatory states based on the agreement - without success.
    Ukraine's foreign ministry spokesman said that Russia's answer was that there was no reason for negotiations. Moscow, as early as a few weeks after the Crimea annexation in March, had rejected all accusations from Kyiv. The "exit of Crimea from Ukraine" is the result of "complex international processes," Russian officials said. According to Moscow, this is unrelated to Russia's obligations under the Budapest Memorandum.
    The USA also denies that it has not fulfilled its obligations. "The Budapest Memorandum was not an agreement on security guarantees," said US ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt in Kyiv in May. It was an agreement to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.
    Both Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity have been violated.#
    The Budapest Memorandum, in other words, was respected by neither the Russians nor the West in the case of Crimea.

    Kyiv wants a new agreement
    Ukraine is holding firm, however, to the Budapest Memorandum. President Petro Poroshenko emphasized as much at the end of November in an interview with German public broadcaster ARD, and earlier, he had also said his country was striving for a successor agreement.
    Experts remain skeptical.
    "An agreement only makes sense if Russia would be involved and willing to guarantee Ukraine security," Simon said. He thinks that is unlikely.
    "Should the West sign such an agreement, it would be a small accession to NATO, even if not formally," Simon said.
    He fears that neither the US, Great Britain or any other country would be ready for that. The Budapest Memorandum is "dead." Nor is a new agreement in sight. Ukraine, then, is left on its own.
    Schneider-Deters believes Ukraine should not aim for a successor agreement. Instead, it should build up its own defense.
    "I believe that the Ukrainians can build up a deterrence capability," Schneider-Deters said. That is better than "security guarantees that are not met in reality.

    Ukraine?s forgotten security guarantee: The Budapest Memorandum | Europe | DW.COM | 05.12.2014

  6. #31
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    Crikey... no wonder you're banned from speakers corner

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow
    Please tell me what country would be better than the USA. China, or Russia?
    Dunno- how many foreign countries have China and Russia invaded recently? How many people have they killed in bombing raids, and drone strikes? How many people have they rendered homeless, into refugees? How might that change if one of them (China, obviously) becomes the pre-eminent world power?

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow
    Please tell me what country would be better than the USA. China, or Russia?
    Dunno- how many foreign countries have China and Russia invaded recently? How many people have they killed in bombing raids, and drone strikes? How many people have they rendered homeless, into refugees? How might that change if one of them (China, obviously) becomes the pre-eminent world power?
    "countries invaded" is a limited question, to be fair.
    Consider Crimea and the Spratleys/Paracels. Consider Tibet.

    Neither as devastating as what the US has done recently, but all 3 powers are bullies.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    Funny how snub and humbert with their claimed Liberal intellect can see the deception in every US intervention from Chile to Iraq, but can't see the exact same parallels in the campaign against Russia.

    Typical spoonfed Americans, being told which shadow they should jump at.
    couldn't agree more, and quite sad. They remind me of Bush supporters like BoonMee circa 2003

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub
    I know a couple of Russians here in the states, a couple of Ukrainians as well
    no you don't, you live in a basement and masturbate all day to Hillary pics

  11. #36
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    Putin sticks it up John Simpson from BBC.


  12. #37
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    Exemptions for certain media, how surprising.

    Italian senators mull making ‘fake news’ a crime punishable by fines & jail

    A cross-party bill in the Italian Senate proposes heavy fines and even jail time for individuals or media outlets who “undermine” democracy and publish “false, exaggerated or biased” news online and refuse to amend copy within 24 hours.
    “There have always been 'fake news' or hoaxes, but they have never been spread at the rate we see today. Because of this, it is no longer possible to put off the debate,” said a statement prefacing the legislation, submitted by Adele Gambaro, a member of the small centrist Liberal Popular Alliance, whose initiative has the support of the bigger parties.

    Read more
    © Reuters‘Never apologize for publishing truth’: Assange calls out Trump on anti-leak & fake news stance
    Ordinary ‘fake news’ reporting would merit a fine of €5,000 ($5,300), while “hate campaigns against individuals” or stories “aimed at undermining the democratic process” could result in €10,000 ($10,614) penalties. News items that would “cause alarm to the public” or “damage the public interest” will be punishable by up to one year in jail.

    Traditional media outlets – newspapers and TV – would be exempt from the legislation.

    “The internet has certainly expanded the boundaries of our freedom by giving us the opportunity to express ourselves on a global scale,” wrote Gambaro. “But freedom of expression cannot turn into a synonym for lack of control where control, in the information era, means correct news, for the protection of users.”

    Additionally, operators of any online news outlets – including bloggers, and forum administrators – would have to apply for a license from the state to operate their website, as well as submitting their name, address, and tax data.

    The proposal also calls for students to undergo special “media literacy” courses that would help them distinguish between reliable and deceptive sources of information.

    ‘Authoritarian tool’
    The proposed law immediately provoked a furious backlash.

    Multiple civil rights activists say the definition of “fake news” in the legislation is so broad as to be indefinable, while the whole principle of punishing people for publishing news is authoritarian.

    Although Germany is mooting its own potential anti-fake news laws, the proposed bill has no equivalent in any Western country, and even if a few are actually punished, it could have a massive ‘chilling effect,’ shutting down online discussion for fear of prosecution.

    “A tool like this would, in essence, be an unexpected ally of a possible anti-democratic order,” legal activists Francesco Paolo Micozzi and Giovanni Battista Gallus told the daily La Repubblica, arguing that open debate is the best means of stopping the spread of unreliable stories.

    The law would also likely be almost unenforceable, with no efficient body to monitor the thousands of potential complaints, and guarantees years of legal battles in courts, as the purveyors of alleged ‘fake news’ will surely defend their position.

    Populist Five-Star Movement leader Beppe Grillo, who has battled ‘fake news’ over his links with Russia, recently suggested creating citizen panels that would get to rule on whether a piece of news is reliable or not. If the commission rules a story to be fake, a publishing newspaper would have to print front-page apologies.

    Digital rights lawyer Carlo Piana told The Local that the law unfairly singles out online media, placing “absurd obligations on blogs and communication platforms.” He said the law would also most likely contravene EU directives.

  13. #38
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    ‘Fake news recycling’: Russian Embassy calls out UK media over ‘Montenegro coup plot’ report

    The Russian Embassy in London has rejected as pure innuendo a report in The Telegraph which claimed Moscow had conspired to overthrow Montenegro’s government during the 2016 poll, describing the report as recycled “fake news.”
    “As usual, no evidence, pure innuendo,” the Russian mission posted on Twitter in response to the Telegraph’s lengthy article that ran under a sensational headline and then proceeded to accuse Russia of orchestrating a coup plot in Montenegro last fall, allegedly “to sabotage the country's plan to join NATO.”

    Citing unnamed “senior Whitehall sources,” the Telegraph, which is considered a rather respected publication, claimed in its report that Prime Minister Milo Djukanovic had been targeted by “Russian intelligence officers with the support and blessing of Moscow.”

    The alleged plot “would have caused heavy bloodshed and plunged the tiny country into turmoil,” the paper told its readers in the unverifiable article, which was promptly picked up by other Western media.

    The entire report is a recycling of long discarded news in order to “to stoke tensions with Russia,” according to the embassy. Moscow had in October already “categorically denied the possibility of official involvement in any attempts to commit any unlawful activities” during parliamentary elections in Montenegro.

    The Montenegrin Special Prosecutor for Organized Crime, Milivoje Katnic, who at the time, accused a “powerful organization” of the coup plot, has also admitted that apart from several suspected “nationalists from Russia,” there's no “evidence that the state of Russia is involved in any sense.” There have also been no official inquiries from Podgorica to Moscow with regards to the alleged coup attempt, the Kremlin confirmed.

    The Telegraph, however, backed their conspiracy with a photograph of Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov taken in December, apparently after he laid a wreath at the Liberators of Belgrade memorial and posed with locals, one of who happened to be an “alleged plotter Nemanja Ristic.”

    READ MORE: Montenegro parliament strips 2 anti-NATO lawmakers of immunity

    The report also said UK Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson and his US counterpart Rex Tillerson “discussed the issue” during their first meeting. It further cited the Montenegrin Defense Minister, Predrag Boskovic, as saying “there is ‘not any doubt’ that the plot was financed and organized by Russian intelligence officers alongside local radicals.”

    To further reinforce their story about “one of the most blatant recent examples of an increasingly aggressive campaign of interference in Western affairs,” the publication boldly pointed to “Russia’s growing campaign of interference in the West,” by again rolling out accusations of Moscow’s alleged meddling in the US presidential election and supposed cyberattacks in Europe.

    Independent journalist, Martin Summers, suspects the Telegraph could indeed have been “briefed by British intelligence,” and believes that allegations of Russia’s involvement in Montenegro are “part of an orchestrated campaign of defamation against Russia.”

    “Frankly, in Britain, it is well know that the Daily Telegraph, which is aligned with the Conservative Party, is a favored mouthpiece for intelligence service disinformation,” Summers told RT. “They've printed lots of articles in the past which they've openly claimed were sourced in British intelligence, but then people have got to draw their own conclusions about whether they're true or not. Because both the Telegraph and British intelligence may and do lie.”

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chico View Post
    Putin sticks it up John Simpson from BBC.
    he certainly knows his shit,

    the BBC reporter is a famous figure and well respected among his peers, but he was way over superficial in his questions, and got the right answer full of substance by knowledgeable Putin,

    must have been overwhelming for his superficial British ass

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    BBC Newsnight getting another kicking.


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  17. #42
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    It seems some are comfortable with their sources of "the truth'. Others try and discern falseness or not. Same as ever.

    But now many can access alternative sources more easily, some countries actually publish speeches, videos etc - some live. It is becoming increasingly difficult to hold any credence if the "truth" is provided by "unknown" or "people who can not be named due to their position".

    Some news sources publish links to the factual record, many don't. Others publish a "revised" version, after the flash effect lie has been accepted by many as "the truth", the paper's "reporter of facts" misheard or the quoted source claims they "misspoke" and failed to get confirmation prior to publishing.

    The days of the corporate news has ended. The reason millionaires purchased newspapers was not for the financial return but for the ability to massage the "facts" to suit themselves and their peers.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    It seems some are comfortable with their sources of "the truth'. Others try and discern falseness or not. Same as ever.
    Aye but surely everyone recognises hannity as a moron except for morons?

  20. #45
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    The video lasts 11.54 mins and CY posts 5 mins after the video is posted, what a moron.

  21. #46
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    Because listening to a recidivist moron talk for 12 minutes is a bright thing to do.



    Links, quotes, videos but no analysis of your own.

    You're like snaff but with less intellectual heft.
    Last edited by cyrille; 22-02-2017 at 01:50 PM.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille
    recognises hannity
    No idea who he is. Do I win a prize?

  23. #48
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    I'm starting to understand you of late, it's a shame that you seem to be related to the nematode worm though have fewer neurons somewhere along the way, possibly through neglect and having a trauma you seem to have found loneliness and self-destructive patterns which lead you to follow people(stalk) and harass,its not to late it can be treated.

    I would've thought considering your supposed to be a schoolteacher that flexibility would be essential in teaching and an open mind a requirement to be employed.

    Though not even considering to watch the video, you are showing your complete ignorance, which astounds me.

    So you wish me to have an opinion how can I possibly do this when you don't even know what the video is saying.Duh.

    Should you bring yourself to watching you may find that Hannity is asking the viewer to look at the achievements of what Trump has done since being in office, and not listening to his enemies and their hatred towards him.

    “Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
    ― Isaac Asimo

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille View Post
    Because listening to a recidivist moron talk for 12 minutes is a bright thing to do.



    Links, quotes, videos but no analysis of your own.

    You're like snaff but with less intellectual heft.

  24. #49
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    Neither does Cyrille he just listens to others.


    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrille
    recognises hannity
    No idea who he is. Do I win a prize?

  25. #50
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    All aboard reckless bandwagon blaming Russian subversion

    Russia is being blamed for interfering in elections across the globe, from the US, Britain, Germany to Estonia and others. Now the tiny Balkan state of Montenegro has jumped on the bandwagon, with an even more reckless version of the 'Russia-did-it' trope.
    This week Montenegro’s state prosecutor concluded Russian state agents were not only trying to subvert elections, but the alleged plot also involved the attempted assassination of the former prime minister, to prevent it becoming a member of NATO.

    With suspiciously good timing, the far-fetched story was given dubious credibility by Britain’s Telegraph newspaper. The day before the Montenegrin prosecutor made the announcement, the Telegraph published an article in which anonymous “Whitehall sources” issued the same claims of a Russian-sponsored coup attempt in Montenegro during the country’s parliamentary elections last October.

    READ MORE: 'Fake news recycling’: Russian Embassy calls out UK media over ‘Montenegro coup plot’ report

    The fact the Telegraph is a well-worn conduit for British military intelligence disinformation is relevant.

    Moscow lambasted the accusations as “absurd.” Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the claims were “irresponsible,” having been leveled without any supporting evidence.

    Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov noted the Montenegro scenario of alleged Russian interference “is just another one in a series of groundless assertions blaming our country for carrying out cyberattacks against the entire West, interfering in election campaigns in the bulk of Western countries, as well as allegations pointing to the Trump administration’s ties with Russian secret services, among other things".

    "Not one iota of evidence has been brought forward about these groundless accusations,” added Lavrov.

    The Montenegrin authorities are indeed just the latest to finger Russia as a convenient scapegoat to distract from what appears to be their own internal political problems.

    The canard was perhaps given away when Montenegro’s Foreign Minister Srdjan Darmanovic commented this week: “In today’s world, such interference is not specific only for Montenegro.” The minister is clearly trying to wrap Montenegro up in the same cloth of victimhood claimed by others who are impugning Russian malfeasance.

    More plausibly, the real story here is Montenegro’s controversial plans to join the US-led NATO military alliance. NATO’s civilian chief Jens Stoltenberg formally invited the country to become the 29th member of the Alliance last May.

    However, that move which has been pushed by former premier Milo Djukanovic and his ruling party is widely opposed among Montenegro’s population of 620,000, with polls showing public opinion edging against membership. This public opposition partly stems from the recent history of NATO bombing former Yugoslavia and the subsequent break-up of the state which led to Montenegro’s independence in 2006.

    To be sure, Russia is staunchly against Montenegro joining NATO, viewing it as another provocative eastward expansion of the military pact toward its borders. Moscow is supportive of Montenegrin political parties opposed to NATO membership but denies any underhand interference in the country’s internal affairs.

    The supposed plot by Moscow to overthrow the Montenegrin government in last year’s parliamentary elections to scuttle plans to join NATO is much more likely to be a ruse by the authorities to drum up anti-Russian public sentiment – with the aim of promoting its pro-NATO cause.

    What Russia is accused of hatching in Montenegro – an armed takeover of parliament and trying to assassinate the premier – is so outlandish it can hardly be taken seriously. But the far-fetched allegations are being swept along in the slipstream of a much bigger propaganda drive in the West to blame Russia for everything.

    German news outlet Deutsche Welle published an article last week with the headline: “Is Moscow meddling in everything?” It goes on to ask with insinuating tone: “Does Putin decide who wins elections in the West? Many believe that he cost Clinton the US presidency; now Macron is next France, and then Merkel will be in the line of fire.”

    In the US, the Senate Intelligence Committee is stepping up its probe into allegations Russian cyber hackers helped Donald Trump win the presidential election on November 8. No evidence has ever been provided by US intelligence agencies to support these claims. But the allegations have taken on a life of their own, becoming coined as “fact” in the media and among Republican and Democratic politicians alike.

    Read more
    © Ints KalninsNATO accuses Russia of fake news, while hysterically warning of WWIII
    In Britain, parliamentarians have retrospectively cited the unproven Russian “influence campaign” for Trump to claim that Russian interference was a factor in why Britons voted unexpectedly in the referendum last June to leave the European Union.

    According to American intelligence claims reported last month, Russia has interfered in the electoral process of several other European countries, including Austria, Germany, France, Bulgaria, Estonia, and Poland, as well as Ukraine.

    This is in spite of the findings by German intelligence which concluded that there was no evidence that Russia hackers had targeted the country.

    In the torrid climate of fake news and “fact-free” narratives, arguably the most egregious exemplar of this are the repeated claims of Russian interference in other nations’ elections. Western news media and governments have abdicated any modicum of responsible conduct to push this inflammatory narrative.

    In recent days, French Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault issued a warning to Russia after he accused Moscow of interfering in the country’s forthcoming presidential elections. France’s top diplomat apparently based his condemnation against Russia on partisan claims made by presidential contender Emmanuel Macron that his campaign was being targeted by Russia. Macron claims his team’s computers were being attacked by hackers. Again, no evidence was provided. He also pointed to an unfavorable article in Russian news outlet Sputnik as grounds for claiming the Kremlin was out to spoil his campaign.

    As in the heyday of the Cold War, and its countless Red Scare stories to keep Western populations cowering in fear, Russia has again emerged as the ultimate scapegoat.

    Western states are wobbling from a lack of authority perceived by the public in governing institutions. Decades of economic and social inequality and overseas illegal wars have eroded the legitimacy of established political parties and mechanisms of governance. Western countries are groaning from discontent toward elitist, effete rulers.

    The rise of populist figures, including Donald Trump in the US and anti-EU, anti-NATO parties in Europe, is symptomatic of this historical movement of mass protest.

    Rather than the establishment parties and institutions, including the mainstream media, accepting that there is a popular revolt underway against a corrupt system, the convenient “explanation” is to blame the decline on Russia. The old Western order is falling apart it seems, from its own internal decay and misrule. But unable to face the truth, the ruling parties and system are desperately looking for a culprit. Russia and its alleged fiendish designs to destroy the Western order is the convenient scapegoat.

    The propaganda delirium of blaming Russia for everything has become so fevered that even Montenegro’s ruling clique is emboldened to come up with the preposterous claim that Moscow is trying to assassinate its leaders.

    This bandwagon of blaming Russia is prone to its wheels coming off – so ridiculous is it. But there’s also a danger that the anti-Russia vehicle pushed too far could explode into a full-scale war between NATO powers and Russia.

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/378163-na...ections-blame/

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