Gun control in Australia.

**Cujo** · 17-12-2014, 08:45 AM

After the Sydney hostage drama there was a lot of internet chatter (twitter etc) from Americans (a certain demographic) about how if Australia didn't have such strict gun control and people in the cafe were armed the situation wouldn't have escalated as it did and the hostage taker would've been neutralized by an armed patron and two lives would have (could have?) been saved.
While that may be true, as is demonstrated in the U.S. it is outweighed by the fact that many more people die by the gun because every nutter, bad guy, temporarily enraged, deranged fantasist who wants a weapon can get one, and having armed citizens DOESN"T stop the killings (as evidenced by the killings, despite the fact they're all armed to the teeth).
What's your take on this?

**thaimeme** · 17-12-2014, 08:47 AM

Has nothing whatsoever to do with weaponry, but a mindset.

And you still don't get it.

**ENT** · 17-12-2014, 09:05 AM

Simple logic dictates that the more guns there are in circulation, the higher the likelihood of gun crime.

**ltnt** · 17-12-2014, 09:10 AM

There's a survey regarding the number of deaths due to handguns and the number of crimes prevented by citizens who are armed. As I recall the balance was very in favor of citizens who owned handguns. Sorry no link.

I don't know if this relates to actual shooting events as was the case in Australia yesterday. An armed citizen in this case could have been simply an off duty police officer. Aussie police are not armed I take it?

No amount of gun freedom will prevent deranged people or those with a determination to do harm if and when they decide to do so. Latest example is proof of this. UK a few months ago when two men decided to whack off a young military mans head in the street, or the numerous drive by murders in gang related events.

I doubt that an armed citizenry stops criminal acts from happening, but they do end those criminal events.

**baldrick** · 17-12-2014, 09:20 AM

what weapon did the nutter have ?

**ENT** · 17-12-2014, 09:21 AM

A sawn off pump action shotgun.

**Cujo** · 17-12-2014, 09:35 AM

U.S. 320,000,000 Limited (?) gun control. Deaths by firearm homocide: per 100,000 2.97

Australia 24,000,000 Strict gun control. Deaths by firearm homocide: Per 100,000 .14

( Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country | News | theguardian.com )

So apparently having an armed population DOESN'T reduce murder rates.
Well what do you know.

**peterpan** · 17-12-2014, 09:36 AM

Police in Australia Are armed.

◾England & Wales 1.45
◾Australia 1.57
◾USA 4.55

These, I would suggest, are the figures that count. It would appear you are three times more likely to get murdered in America than you are in Australia or England and Wales where there is not a huge amount of difference between the two countries.

So do police carrying guns make for a safer country? No, not according to these figures. Do restrictions on private gun ownership make for a safer country? Yes, it looks pretty conclusive to me.

One final word. If you find these figures scary, don’t go to Columbia for your holidays. Overall murders there (by any means) per 100,000 population run at 62.7, 51.8 with guns.

But if you want to go somewhere that does have fewer murders than Australia then choose from Chile, Denmark, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand, Qatar, Singapore, Spain and Switzerland which all have lower rates.

**Cujo** · 17-12-2014, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by ltnt

I doubt that an armed citizenry stops criminal acts from happening, but they do end those criminal events.

Very few. And the majority of those wouldn't happen in the first place if so many people weren't armed.

(Aussie police are armed by the way)

**bsnub** · 17-12-2014, 10:08 AM

You can look at numbers all you want but in the end they are just misleading. In the US there are more murders per capita however, most of those murders are concentrated in small certain areas i.e. metro Detriot, Chicago, etc. If you removed the data from those areas you would most likely see that the murders are not that much higher than in the UK.

Secondly as this event has once again proven all gun control does is take firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. The criminal will always find a way to get a gun.

**panama hat** · 17-12-2014, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by thaimeme

Has nothing whatsoever to do with weaponry, but a mindset.

Correct

Originally Posted by ENT

Simple logic dictates that the more guns there are in circulation, the higher the likelihood of gun crime.

Also correct

Originally Posted by ltnt

Aussie police are not armed I take it?

Incorrect

Originally Posted by Koojo

U.S. 320,000,000 Limited (?) gun control. Deaths by firearm homocide: per 100,000 2.97

Australia 24,000,000 Strict gun control. Deaths by firearm homocide: Per 100,000 .14

( Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country | News | theguardian.com )

So apparently having an armed population DOESN'T reduce murder rates.
Well what do you know.

Seems logical

Originally Posted by Koojo

Very few. And the majority of those wouldn't happen in the first place if so many people weren't armed.

Also logical

Some braindead FOX news reporter said the same thing about more guns then this wouldn't happen. Stats clearly show this to be false.

I can think of few things worse than many guns in circulation so that access to them by those that intend to harm is easier.

**Cujo** · 17-12-2014, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by bsnub

You can look at numbers all you want but in the end they are just misleading. In the US there are more murders per capita however, most of those murders are concentrated in small certain areas i.e. metro Detriot, Chicago, etc. If you removed the data from those areas you would most likely see that the murders are not that much higher than in the UK.

Secondly as this event has once again proven all gun control does is take firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. The criminal will always find a way to get a gun.

The thing is, he has to 'find a way..', rather than just walk into a store and buy one, making the process more difficult.
The figures don't lie, gun control equals less murders by gun. Full stop.
You can talk about concentrations all you want, but those concentrations wouldn't exist if strict gun control was enforced.

**Davis Knowlton** · 17-12-2014, 10:21 AM

No statistics, which I find fairly meaningless, but I don't recall seeing very many stories of an armed US citizen stopping a crime - outside of their home, that is.

I have seen countless stories of untrained citizens shooting themselves, family members, and strangers with their newly-acquired toys.

Sadly, for the US, the genie is waaaay out of the box - there are weapons everywhere with no way to get them out of circulation.

If I lived there, would I carry a concealed weapon - no. Would I have a weapon in the house - yes.

**bsnub** · 17-12-2014, 10:23 AM

^^ Firstly, a criminal can't buy a gun in a store in the US and I have no idea why you would think that.

Switzerland had the fourth highest ratio of gun ownership in the world yet one of the lowest homicide rates. According to your theory this is not possible. Not to mention Sweden, Finland, and Norway all countries with high rates of gun ownership and low homicide rates.

**ENT** · 17-12-2014, 10:24 AM

Unrestricted access to firearms.......

**Latindancer** · 17-12-2014, 10:42 AM

If the majority of people weren't conditioned to be such sheep, and more of them learnt martial arts, there would have been at least one person at that siege who could have whacked the guy in an appropriate place to disable him.

Guns aren't needed.

**Lantern** · 17-12-2014, 10:47 AM

Not in his home, but this guy sorted these thugs out.

**ENT** · 17-12-2014, 10:49 AM

^^ What particular martial art move would you have used to disable the nutter, Ld?

**pseudolus** · 17-12-2014, 10:54 AM

Agree with Snubb. Guns are a tool and they should not be the preserve of criminals and nut cases. Easy as piss to get a gun in any country with tough gun laws as criminals show. Most gun crime in the US are in the ghettos created by the vacuuming of wealth and jobs away from the working classes. With no investment in the bottom 50% of people and ever increasing costs of living, people turn to crime and guns are part and parcel of that.

A gun behind the counter and that would have stopped it dead in its tracks

(yes Snub, I am agreeing with you. Normal service will be restored another time when you make a daft statement again).

**Cujo** · 17-12-2014, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

^^ Firstly, a criminal can't buy a gun in a store in the US and I have no idea why you would think that.

Switzerland had the fourth highest ratio of gun ownership in the world yet one of the lowest homicide rates. According to your theory this is not possible. Not to mention Sweden, Finland, and Norway all countries with high rates of gun ownership and low homicide rates.

A: Are you saying all states do Background checks?

B:

The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (recruit school), the basic-training camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers).

Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus).

In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still store ammunition at home today.

When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment.[citation needed] However, keeping the weapon after end of service requires a license.

Gun politics in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The regulation of guns in Switzerland is categorised as restrictive.
In Switzerland, some 'manual repetition rifles' for sport and hunting may be owned without a licence, but in other cases only licensed gun owners59 60 61 may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition
CompareGenuine Reason Required for Firearm Possession
Applicants for a gun owner’s licence in Switzerland are required to establish a genuine reason to possess a firearm, for example, hunting, target shooting, self-defence, and collection59 62 63 64
CompareMinimum Age for Firearm Possession
The minimum age for gun ownership in Switzerland is 18 years59
CompareGun Licence Background Check
An applicant for a firearm licence in Switzerland must pass a background check which considers mental, criminal and domestic violence59 65 63 64 records
CompareReference Required for Firearm Licence
In Switzerland, third party character references for each gun licence applicant are not required46
CompareDomestic Violence and Firearms
Where a past history, or apprehended likelihood of family violence exists, the law in Switzerland stipulates65 that a gun licence should be denied or revoked
CompareFirearm Safety Training
In Switzerland, an understanding of firearm safety and the law, tested in a theoretical and/or practical training course is required for a permit to carry a hidden handgun, but is not required66 67 for a firearm licence
CompareGun Owner Licensing Period
In Switzerland gun owners must re-apply and re-qualify for their firearm licence every five years (license to carry)68
CompareLicensing Records
In Switzerland, authorities maintains a record57 69 of individual civilians licensed to acquire, possess, sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland

So you see, although Switzerland has a high degree of gun ownership, unlike the U.S. it is highly regulated and controlled and a large proportion of gun owners are trained irregular army (Militia) members so it's not quite as you portray it.

**bsnub** · 17-12-2014, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Koojo

A: Are you saying all states do Background checks?

Yes it is a federal law that if you buy a new gun you have to have a background check.

Originally Posted by Koojo

Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus).

So just about every home in Switzerland has a fully automatic assault rifle in it. Now that's a crime deterent!

**bsnub** · 17-12-2014, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by pseudolus

Agree with Snubb. Guns are a tool and they should not be the preserve of criminals and nut cases. Easy as piss to get a gun in any country with tough gun laws as criminals show. Most gun crime in the US are in the ghettos created by the vacuuming of wealth and jobs away from the working classes. With no investment in the bottom 50% of people and ever increasing costs of living, people turn to crime and guns are part and parcel of that.

A gun behind the counter and that would have stopped it dead in its tracks

(yes Snub, I am agreeing with you. Normal service will be restored another time when you make a daft statement again).

Wow! I thought for sure you would pop up to take a swing at me!

Well I actually think your post is spot on. If you want crime reduction in the US it needs to be done through education, and the shifting of wealth back down to the working classes.

**Cujo** · 17-12-2014, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by Koojo

A: Are you saying all states do Background checks?

Yes it is a federal law that if you buy a new gun you have to have a background check.

Originally Posted by Koojo

Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus).

So just about every home in Switzerland has a fully automatic assault rifle in it. Now that's a crime deterent!

These people are trained in the safe use and storage of the weapon.
They're not any old thug.

The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works
The country had one mass shooting in 2001, but a resulting anti-gun referendum failed to pass. The Swiss will not give up the gun. Can their system work in the U.S.?

By Helena Bachmann / Geneva Dec. 20, 2014.

Even as the gun-control debate rises again in the U.S. in the aftermath of the horrific school shooting in Newtown, Conn., the gun-loving Swiss are not about to lay down their arms. Guns are ubiquitous in this neutral nation, with sharpshooting considered a fun and wholesome recreational activity for people of all ages.

Even though Switzerland has not been involved in an armed conflict since a standoff between Catholics and Protestants in 1847, the Swiss are very serious not only about their right to own weapons but also to carry them around in public. Because of this general acceptance and even pride in gun ownership, nobody bats an eye at the sight of a civilian riding a bus, bike or motorcycle to the shooting range, with a rifle slung across the shoulder.

“We will never change our attitude about the responsible use of weapons by law-abiding citizens,” says Hermann Suter, vice president of Pro-Tell, the country’s gun lobby, named after legendary apple shooter William Tell, who used a crossbow to target enemies long before firearms were invented.

Switzerland trails behind only the U.S, Yemen and Serbia in the number of guns per capita; between 2.3 million and 4.5 million military and private firearms are estimated to be in circulation in a country of only 8 million people. Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people, according to a 2011 U.N. report.

Unlike some other heavily armed nations, Switzerland’s gun ownership is deeply rooted in a sense of patriotic duty and national identity. Weapons are kept at home because of the long-held belief that enemies could invade tiny Switzerland quickly, so every soldier had to be able to fight his way to his regiment’s assembly point. (Switzerland was at risk of being invaded by Germany during World War II but was spared, historians say, because every Swiss man was armed and trained to shoot.)

But the “gun in every closet” tradition was challenged in 2001, after a disgruntled citizen opened fire with his army rifle inside a regional parliament, killing 14 and injuring 14 others — the only mass shooting in Switzerland’s recent history. The subsequent opposition to widespread gun ownership spearheaded a push for stricter arms legislation. The government and pro-gun groups argued, however, that the country’s existing laws regulating the sale, ownership and licensing of private guns, which includes a ban on carrying concealed weapons, are stringent enough. The law allows citizens or legal residents over the age of 18, who have obtained a permit from the government and who have no criminal record or history of mental illness, to buy up to three weapons from an authorized dealer, with the exception of automatic firearms and selective fire weapons, which are banned. Semiautomatics, which have caused havoc in the U.S., can be legally purchased.

The authorities made one concession, though: since 2008, all military — but not private — ammunition must be stored in central arsenals rather than in soldiers’ homes. The debate culminated in a nationwide referendum last year, when 56% of voters rejected the proposal initiated by anti-gun organizations to ban army rifles from homes altogether.

Although guns are responsible for between 200 and 300 suicides each year in Switzerland, Pro-Tell’s Suter says these statistics have to be put in a wider perspective. He points out that the bullets used in suicides are only a tiny fraction of the 75 million rounds of ammunition that are fired each year in Switzerland during military and civilian target practice.

One of the reasons the crime rate in Switzerland is low despite the prevalence of weapons — and also why the Swiss mentality can’t be transposed to the current American reality — is the culture of responsibility and safety that is anchored in society and passed from generation to generation. Kids as young as 12 belong to gun groups in their local communities, where they learn sharpshooting. The Swiss Shooting Sports Association runs about 3,000 clubs and has 150,000 members, including a youth section. Many members keep their guns and ammunition at home, while others choose to leave them at the club. And yet, despite such easy access to pistols and rifles, “no members have ever used their guns for criminal purposes,” says Max Flueckiger, the association’s spokesperson.

“Social conditions are fundamental in deterring crime,” says Peter Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Brighton in Great Britain, who has studied gun violence in different countries and concluded that a “culture of support” rather than focus on individualism, can deter mass killings.

“If people have a responsible, disciplined and organized introduction into an activity like shooting, there will be less risk of gun violence,” he tells TIME.

That sense of social and civic responsibility is one of the reasons the Swiss have never allowed their guns to come under fire.

How Switzerland Developed a Gun Culture That Works | TIME.com

**harrybarracuda** · 17-12-2014, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by bsnub

You can look at numbers all you want but in the end they are just misleading. In the US there are more murders per capita however, most of those murders are concentrated in small certain areas i.e. metro Detriot, Chicago, etc. If you removed the data from those areas you would most likely see that the murders are not that much higher than in the UK.

Secondly as this event has once again proven all gun control does is take firearms out of the hands of law-abiding citizens. The criminal will always find a way to get a gun.

Fuck me snubby, was that straight out of your "NRA for dummies" colouring book?

**harrybarracuda** · 17-12-2014, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by ltnt

I doubt that an armed citizenry stops criminal acts from happening, but they do end those criminal events.

Only because the perpetrators either shoot at the police or commit suicide.

This NRA shit about the "good guys having guns" is a load of bollocks.

List of school shootings in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the majority of cases, people are more likely to be shot if they are have a gun.

Not to mention the higher risk of death by accident, suicide, etc.

The health risk of having a gun in the home | MinnPost

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