The Word "guy"

[pseudolus]

Just reading about the V for Thailand protests (has Chalerm bombed them yet?) and form there stumbled onto the route for the word "Guy" as in , heh, that guy over there".

Of course, it comes from Guy Fawkes, or more accurately, from the time that burning an effigy of him became popular. Random blokes walking down the road dressed in rags and being unkempt were dubbed with the name Guy, referring to them looking like a Guy Fawkes effigy that would be burnt. Only when, no doubt because it was being used so often, the word was being used in America did it lose any pejorative connotation.

Just thought I would share as I didn't know this.

[Necron99]

Interesting.
We still did the effigy thing on the bonfire when I was a kid.
Before the nannies decided it was all too dangerous.

[mao say dung]

Except of course that there is no "of course" about it. When you look in the OED, you can see that the American sense of "guy", meaning fellow or male person, starts to appear only shortly after the earliest British uses of "guy" to refer to the dummy getting paraded around.

The word itself is so old and has so many various usages that it isn't at all certain that the American "guy" derives from anything to do with November, November.

[pseudolus]

^ Wrong.

[pseudolus]

guy: definition of guy in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)



cordial: definition of cordial in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
invite: definition of invite in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
you: definition of you in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
to: definition of to in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
to: definition of to in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
to: definition of to in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
to: definition of to in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
to: definition of to in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
to: definition of to in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
to: definition of to in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)
to: definition of to in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)[at][at][at][at]

[mao say dung]

Er...and?

[pseudolus]

well, mr know all, just because you say something is true doe snot mean it is. In this case, your source, the OED, agrees with me. So get fucked.

[Necron99]

^ doesn't say that at all.


Some online etymologies do, but not your link.

[mao say dung]

From the OED on CD-rom, not the online freebies:

2.2 A person of grotesque appearance, esp. with reference to dress; a ‘fright’.


d.3.d A man, fellow. orig. U.S.
[at][at][at]The earliest examples may be influenced by sense 2.

I've bolded the bit that you will be utterly unable to take in, having found something on the internet, and therefore know what needs to be known already.



[at][at][at]

[pseudolus]

FFS why always a shit throwing contest?

I put something up that was interesting, and backed up by every source I looked at. Along come telfer saying "that's wrong because I am great" , so I link to his source which says clearly...

Origin:

early 19th century (in 1sense 2 of the noun): named after Guy Fawkes (see Gunpowder Plot)

and now necron is defending Telfer mao!

Jesus H Corbett - you try and be a good poster and yet all you get is this shit stalking crap.

[mao say dung]

I'm saying that's wrong because it's wrong. I've backed it up with a very clear quote from the OED-CDrom. You've backed your assertion with a quote that doesn't support your assertion.

But it is on the internet.

[pseudolus]

From the OED on CD-rom, not the online freebies:

Quote:
2.2 A person of grotesque appearance, esp. with reference to dress; a ‘fright’.


d.3.d A man, fellow. orig. U.S.
[at][at][at]The earliest examples may be influenced by sense 2.
I've bolded the bit that you will be utterly unable to take in, having found something on the internet, and therefore know what needs to be known already.



[at][at][at]

Nope - you are wrong, telfer mao. You didn't post up the complete reference, and you think that a 10 yr old CD rom is more pertinent that OED website?

You are wrong, so toddle off you patronizing fucktard.

[pseudolus]

I'm saying that's wrong because it's wrong. I've backed it up with a very clear quote from the OED-CDrom. You've backed your assertion with a quote that doesn't support your assertion.

But it is on the internet.

Origin:

early 19th century (in 1sense 2 of the noun): named after Guy Fawkes (see Gunpowder Plot)

What is ther to misunderstand? The OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY WEBSITE SAYS its origin is the Gunpower plot.

My god - fucking teachers! You are wrong

[mao say dung]

The origin of what, pseudo?

[pseudolus]

Even on the page about the guy: definition of guy in Oxford dictionary (American English)

yank use of the word - says the same.

So what is your point? You think a 10 yr old CD rom is dead cert proof where as a website from the same body is likely to be wrong?

[Necron99]

FFS why always a shit throwing contest?

I put something up that was interesting, and backed up by every source I looked at. Along come telfer saying "that's wrong because I am great" , so I link to his source which says clearly...

Origin:

early 19th century (in 1sense 2 of the noun): named after Guy Fawkes (see Gunpowder Plot)

.

^ this.

Is referring to the name given to an effigy. Not the use of guy as a you suggested.
You should read it again.


This ( Online Etymology Dictionary ) suggests you have some basis, but you didn't post it to support your original post, something most would usually do.
A post which I suspect was only made so you could jump out and say "gotcha!"
But in this case you fluffed it. Sorry.

[pseudolus]

Except of course that there is no "of course" about it. When you look in the OED, you can see that the American sense of "guy", meaning fellow or male person, starts to appear only shortly after the earliest British uses of "guy" to refer to the dummy getting paraded around.

The word itself is so old and has so many various usages that it isn't at all certain that the American "guy" derives from anything to do with November, November.

Everything you state here was just a guess wasn't it? Would love to see you substantiate any of it.

[pseudolus]

This ( Online Etymology Dictionary ) suggests you have some basis, but you didn't post it to support your original post, something most would usually do.
A post which I suspect was only made so you could jump out and say "gotcha!"
But in this case you fluffed it. Sorry.

No i didn't.

The use of the word "That guy over there" comes from, as I put in the OP, the guy fawkes effigy, and it losing its pejorative connotation.

Now, just because telfer mao says other wise (with no proof mark you) does not mean he is right. He is wrong. Simple as that. He took a guess that he would be right, but he has singularly failed to back up what he says.

Using the word "guy" to mean a fellow, a chap, comes originally from the guy fawkes effigy.

[mao say dung]

It seems fairly obvious that "sense 2", meaning the dummy as gets burned and trotted about in a stroller, derives from Guy Fawkes. No problem there.

The American sense, however, does not clearly derive from that little dummy. It's meaning may have been colored originally by the British sense of "guy" that means "ill-dressed person". That's only a maybe though.

Of course, the whole idea of "may" and "might" and uncertainty in general must cause you untold pain and anxiety, so you stick with the of course you get from the internet FREE version, even though the paid version is slightly different and more, shall we say, subtle.

[pseudolus]

Interesting.
We still did the effigy thing on the bonfire when I was a kid.
Before the nannies decided it was all too dangerous.

can't we just get back to here before you bowed down to telfer mao and his arrogance he spreads around. The guy is a telfer know nothing - why anyone takes the fool seriously i have no idea.

[pseudolus]

The American sense, however, does not clearly derive from that little dummy. It's meaning may have been colored originally by the British sense of "guy" that means "ill-dressed person". That's only a maybe though.

prove it - you can not. There is nothing saying that at all.

The word Guy moved to the US with people form the UK, where it lost its pejorative connotation. That is what everything, including your own precious CD rom says.

You are wrong.

[mao say dung]

guy, n.1

(gaɪ)

Forms: 4–5 gye, 5, 9 Sc. gy, 6 Sc. guye, 7 guie, 7– guy.

[a. OF. gui-s (obj. case guion), also guie = Pr., Sp., Pg. guia, It. guida (see guide n.); the two Rom. types *guido(n and *guida (etymologically fem., but masc. as a designation of men) are verbal ns. f. guidare: see guide v.]

†1.1 A guide; a conductor or leader. Obs. rare.

[at][at][at]c 1350 Will. Palerne 2727 Þan hiȝed þei hem to þe hauen‥as þe werwolf hem wissed þat was al here gye. [at][at][at]Ibid. 2849 Þe herte & þe hinde þere þanne hem hed sone, as þe werwolf hem wissed þat ay was here gye. [at][at][at]c 1470 Henry Wallace ix. 684 Bath Forth and Tay thai left and passyt by On the north cost, [gud] Guthrie was thar gy. [at][at][at]1500–20 Dunbar Poems lxxxviii. 53 London‥Thy famous Maire‥is exampler, loode-ster, and guye.

2. a.2.a Chiefly Naut. A rope used to guide and steady a thing which is being hoisted or lowered; also, a rope, chain, rod, etc. to secure or steady anything liable to shift its position or to be carried away, as the mast, funnel, etc. of a vessel, a derrick, a suspension-bridge, etc.
[at][at][at]lazy guy, ‘a small tackle or rope to prevent the spanker-boom from swaying about in fine weather’ (Smyth Sailor's Word-bk. 1867). travelling guy (see quot. 1846).

[at][at][at]1623 J. Taylor (Water P.) Praise Hemp-seed 10 Shrowds, ratlings, lanyards, tackles, lifts, and guies. [at][at][at]1626 Capt. Smith Accid. Yng. Sea-men 16 Sheeps feet is‥a guie in staying the tackles when they are charged with goods. [at][at][at]1627 ― Seaman's Gram. v. 20 A Guy‥is a rope brought to it from the foremast, to keepe the weight vpon it steady. [at][at][at]1711 W. Sutherland Shipbuilder's Assist. 113 The Guy of the winding Tackle. [at][at][at]1755 Phil. Trans. XLIX. 352 His Majesty's ship the Gosport was‥well-stay'd by guys and hawsers. [at][at][at]1816 Scott Antiq. viii, The experienced seaman had let down with the chair another line, which, being attached to it, and held by the persons beneath, might serve by way of gy. [at][at][at]1846 Young Naut. Dict. s.v., There are sometimes also guys attached to the jib-traveller, which get the name of travelling guys. [at][at][at]1863 Baring-Gould Iceland 105 Drive the [tent-] pegs home and stretch the guys. [at][at][at]1875 Bedford Sailor's Pocket Bk. v. (ed. 2) 173 A broken oar is driven into the sand, and supported by guys of spun yarn. [at][at][at]1882 Nares Seamanship (ed. 6) 207 If the wind is light, get a lazy guy on the spanker boom. [at][at][at]1897 Westm. Gaz. 24 Nov. 9/1 About six o'clock the funnel guy was carried away.

b.2.b Naut. slang. Phrase to clap a guy on: to put a stop to; to ‘stow’.

[at][at][at]1814 Sailors' Return ii. vi, I‥request you will join us at dinner, if you'll only clap a guy on your low lingo.

3.3 attrib. and Comb. (in sense 2), as guy-chain, guy-crane, guy-line, guy-peg, guy-rope, guy-tackle; also guy rein, a guiding or leading rein; guy-rod, a rod used in place of a guy-rope.

[at][at][at]1793 Smeaton Edystone L. §254 note, The shears were kept upright, and were managed, by two strong guy (or guide) ropes. [at][at][at]1861 Man. Artil. Exerc. 175 As soon as the centre of each tent is marked by a peg, 4 guy pegs are driven to the front, rear, right and left. [at][at][at]1866 T. Seaton Cadet to Colonel I. 19 From a strong ring in the deck, near the head of the boat, ran a guy rope. [at][at][at]1869 Daily News 12 June, A gentleman leading a beautiful child by a guy rein. He is mounted on a superb bay, his little companion on a cream-coloured pony. [at][at][at]1879 Man. Artil. Exerc. 640 For guy tackles likely to be wetted with salt water tarred cordage should be used. [at][at][at]1879 R. S. Ball in Cassell's Techn. Educ. I. 208 In a crane which is often used for quarrying and other rough purposes, and which is sometimes called a guy crane, there are two stays. [at][at][at]1903 A. Adams Log of Cowboy x. 152 We took a guy line from the wagon and snubbed it to a tree. [at][at][at]1903 Electr. World & Engin. 31 Oct. 711 (Cent. D. Suppl.), Guy-rods are 8 ft. × 5/8 in., provided with an eye at one end. [at][at][at]1910 N. Hawkins Electr. Dict., Guy Rod Bands, bands by which a guy rod is attached to a telegraph pole. [at][at][at]1928 Daily Express 7 Apr. 5/5 Drive in the remaining pegs and attach and true up the remaining guylines.


guy, n.2

(gaɪ)

Pl. guys.

1. a.1.a An effigy of Guy Fawkes traditionally burnt on the evening of November the Fifth, usu. with a display of fireworks. Also in full Guy Fawkes.
[at][at][at]Guys were formerly paraded about in the streets on the anniversary of the ‘Gunpowder Plot’ (Nov. 5). They are now more frequently exhibited by children collecting money for fireworks during the days preceding Nov. 5.
[at][at][at]The figure is habited in grotesquely ragged and ill-assorted garments (whence sense 2), and was formerly accompanied by other similar effigies (representing unpopular persons), to which the name of ‘guys’ is often given by extension.

[at][at][at]1806 W. Burrell in Lett. C. K. Sharpe (1888) I. 277 A month ago there was neither shape nor make in me.‥ No guy ever matched me. [at][at][at]1825 Hone Every-day Bk. I. 1430 Formerly an old cocked hat was the reigning fashion for a ‘Guy’. [at][at][at]1861 C. M. Yonge Young Step-Mother xxix. 442 ‘There's Guy Fawkes,’ cried Albinia, as a procession of scare-crows were borne on chairs amid thunders of acclamation. [at][at][at]1867 Trollope Chron. Barset II. lx. 175 What are you doing there, dressed up in that way like a guy? [at][at][at]1868 Dickens Uncomm. Trav. xxi, Once on a fifth of November I found a ‘Guy’ trusted to take care of himself there, while his proprietors had gone to dinner. [at][at][at]1968 Listener 7 Nov. 606 I'm afraid Simon is rather burnt. It was so dark some of the children thought he was the guy. [at][at][at]1970 R. Garrett Run Down iv. 95 It was the first Saturday of November. There were dozens of Guy Fawkes of varying merit lined along each street.

b.1.b Guy Fawkes day (Guy Fawkes night), 5 Nov., the anniversary of the ‘Gunpowder plot’. Also ellipt.

[at][at][at]1825 W. Hone Every-day Bk. 1430/2 ‘Guy Fawkes-day’, or, as they as often call it, ‘Pope-day’, is a holiday, and‥, on account of its festivous enjoyment, is the greatest holiday of the season. [at][at][at]1833 J. Romilly Diary 5 Nov. (1967) i. 41 Webb (the W. merchant's) long dull son dined in hall with me being Guy Fawkes day. [at][at][at]1913 C. Mackenzie Sinister St. I. i. iv. 63 Suddenly he heard the cry, ‘Remember, remember the Fifth of November‥,’ and, almost before he had time to realize it was the dreaded Guy Fawkes, a band of‥boys‥held close to the window a nodding Guy. [at][at][at]1970 Times 4 Nov. 2/2 The reserves of stamina the [fire]men have to build up for Guy Fawkes night each year.

2.2 A person of grotesque appearance, esp. with reference to dress; a ‘fright’.

[at][at][at]1836 Lett. fr. Madras (1843) 9 The gentlemen are all ‘rigged Tropical’,‥grisly Guys some of them turn out! [at][at][at]1861 Hughes Tom Brown at Oxf. xxvi. (1889) 246 He was such an old guy in his dress. [at][at][at]1880 Daily Tel. 15 Oct., We have far too many sculptured ‘Guys’ in the metropolis. [at][at][at]1893 Vizetelly Glances back I. ii. 33 Little boys‥were dressed up to look the greatest of guys.

attrib. [at][at][at]1875 R. F. Burton Gorilla L. II. 145 He appeared habited in the usual guy style: a gaudy fancy helmet [etc.].

3.3 slang. a.3.a A dark lantern. ? Obs.

[at][at][at]1811 Lex. Balatronicum s.v., Stow the guy: conceal the lanthorn.

b.3.b An act of decamping or running off ‘on the sly’. to give the guy to: to run away from, ‘give the slip to’. Also to do a guy.

[at][at][at]1889 Sporting Times 3 Aug. 5/5 (Farmer) A cheerful guy to Waterloo was the game. [at][at][at]1897 [see guy v.4]. [at][at][at]1898 Daily News 8 Sept. 2/3 ‘He's done a guy’.‥ The Coroner—Done a what? Witness—Done a guy; ‘bunked’. [at][at][at]1899 Blackw. Mag. Sept. 378/1 Don't think to give us the guy. [at][at][at]1925 N. Venner Imperfect Impostor xiii. 221 He's just picked me up out of the road with a sprained ankle, or very near it, bandaged me up like a medical student, and brought me home. Then he wants to do a guy at the front door. [at][at][at]1954 N. Balchin Last Recoll. Uncle Charles iii. 43 It was‥not so very surprising that he should ‘do a guy’, as they put it locally, with his employers' money.

c.3.c (See quot.)

[at][at][at]1835 Tait's Mag. II. 451 These crimps are Jews; there are a few Christians who profess the same commercial faith, and they are called guys. These crimps and guys prey like sharks on the unfortunate sailors.

d.3.d A man, fellow. orig. U.S.
[at][at][at]The earliest examples may be influenced by sense 2.

[at][at][at]1847 Swell's Night Guide 41, I can't tonight, for I am going to be seduced by a rich old Guy. [at][at][at]1863 C. Reade Hard Cash III. xiii. 270, I wouldn't speak to you in the street for fear of disgracing you; I am such a poor little guy to be addressing a gentleman like you. [at][at][at]1876 L. C. Barraud 15 Oct. in E. M. Barraud Story of Family (1967) xi. 133 The little children are such cures, and the nurses seem to go out with the master and mistress. The little boys look great guys. [at][at][at]1896 Ade Artie i. 3 You guys must think I'm a quitter. [at][at][at]1898 Milwaukee Sentinel 22 Jan. 4/7, I s'pose you got a Bible you'll let a guy look into. [at][at][at]1904 Cincinnati Commercial Tribune 29 June 4 Mr. Bryan is a hefty guy when it comes to Democratic conventions and the platforms thereof. [at][at][at]1928 D. H. Lawrence in T.P.'s & Cassell's Weekly 7 July 333/3, I say to Mother: Show me somebody happy, then! And she shows me some guy, or some bright young thing, and gets mad when I say: See the pretty monkey! [at][at][at]1931 R. Campbell Georgiad i. 16 These are the guys that find the world forlorn And wish (correctly) they had not been born. [at][at][at]1931 D. Runyon (title) Guys and Dolls. [at][at][at]1932 E. Wilson Devil take Hindmost xi. 114 The literary guys are taking public matters more seriously. [at][at][at]1951 Auden Nones (1952) 62 Thou shalt not be on friendly terms With guys in advertising firms. [at][at][at]1966 Wodehouse Plum Pie i. 32 All the other places‥had been full of guys and dolls standing bumper to bumper.

Hence ˈguydom, the state of being a guy.

[at][at][at]1882 A. Beresford-Hope Brandreths I. i. 3 He could not deny a woman's right to refuse to make a guy of herself, as she understood guydom.

Maybe take the red pill before you set out on the voyage of discovery laid out before you.

[Necron99]

Interesting.
We still did the effigy thing on the bonfire when I was a kid.
Before the nannies decided it was all too dangerous.

can't we just get back to here before you bowed down to telfer mao and his arrogance he spreads around. The guy is a telfer know nothing - why anyone takes the fool seriously i have no idea.

Lol. You fucked up. You posted the wrong link. You link only refers to the effigy.
Deal with it.

[pseudolus]

internet FREE version,

Are you trying to insinuate that the OED would mislead and lie on their internet portal then just to vindicate the fools like you mad enough to spend 200 USD on a CD Rom?

[mao say dung]

Have a good day, pseudo. Try to control the froth, eh?