Space News thread

[BaitongBoy]

Amusing Pictures Ripped From The Net...

[bobo746]

A photo taken from the International Space Station by the astronaut Ricky Arnold shows Hurricane Lane in the early morning hours near Hawaii on August 22, 2018

[Takeovers]

Pictures of large cloud formations from tropical storms are in the amazing category, really.

But note on the right side a really good photo of the Soyuz spaceship, with the orbital module, the service section and on top the reentry capsule also.

[Luigi]

Hey TO, what's the current ETA of humans going to Mars? Still on track for the early 2020's?

[Takeovers]

Hey TO, what's the current ETA of humans going to Mars? Still on track for the early 2020's?

Only yesterday Paul Wooster of SpaceX had a presentation at the Mars Society annual convention. He is the man at SpaceX responsible for planning Mars surface activities and facilities. He reconfirmed the plan laid out a year ago. 2 unmanned cargo BFS to Mars in 2022. 2 cargo and 2 crew BFS in 2024. But this time table is still very much aspirational. We will know more one year from now. By then the BFS, the ship is expected to do suborbital test flights. If they can meet this schedule, their aspiration becomes more realistic.

But even then there are so many difficulties to overcome that everybody expect some slips.

Fun fact on the side. I as a total lay man am sometimes in discussion with experts. I have maintained that despite the system being fully reusable I expect that the first ships, at least 2, probably 6, will never return to Earth and was much critisized for it. Yesterday Wooster for the first time confirmed my expectation. Sometimes the experts don't see the forest for all the trees. That does not change the fact though, that they know a hundred times more about these things than I do.

[Topper]

TO, what is the black cloth looking stuff over the top of the Soyuz....some kind of fabric to protect it from micrometeorites and such?

[Takeovers]

TO, what is the black cloth looking stuff over the top of the Soyuz....some kind of fabric to protect it from micrometeorites and such?

Seems it is not actually black, just looks like it from the lighting. For comparison the moon looks bright yellow to us but actually it is a dark slate grey. It only looks like it does due to the direct sunlight hitting it.



It is a multilayer thermal blanket but does some micrometeorid protection as well. I had to look it up.


Note that depending on details the writing is meteoroid, meteorite or other. It was always too complex for me to understand which is applied when and for what.

[Topper]

Thanks TO!

[Luigi]

Seems it is not actually black, just looks like it from the lighting. For comparison the moon looks bright yellow to us but actually it is a dark slate grey.

And, as I'm sure you know, the Sun is actually white.

[jabir]

...I have maintained that despite the system being fully reusable I expect that the first ships, at least 2, probably 6, will never return to Earth and was much criticized for it.

Really surprised at that. 'Experts' should know that science progresses through trial and error, so it speaks volumes to reject reality and criticise you for expecting things to go wrong early on in ventures through literal new horizons.

I don't know any 'experts' in the field, but without polling my contacts list I would say most expect that even with best efforts to prevent losses ships and certainly lives are going to be lost in the ongoing quest to learn what's out there.

[Takeovers]

Really surprised at that. 'Experts' should know that science progresses through trial and error, so it speaks volumes to reject reality and criticise you for expecting things to go wrong early on in ventures through literal new horizons.

I don't know any 'experts' in the field, but without polling my contacts list I would say most expect that even with best efforts to prevent losses ships and certainly lives are going to be lost in the ongoing quest to learn what's out there.

It is not that I am basing my opinion on rockets failing though that surely is a possibility.

I just look at the timing of events, assuming success.

First 2 cargo ships land.

2 years later crew and more cargo arrive, 4 ships.

Propellant production starts and 2 years later they have return propellant. By then more ships arrive from earth, this time landing on prepared ground, less likely to cause damage to the engines during landing. I argue it is better to send the new arrivals back after a short stay with the limited propellant available than keeping the new ones waiting 2 years and send the old ones back that have stayed 2 or 4 years on Mars.

[jabir]

Fair enough and sure lots of things can go wrong, but bottom line is once humans leave the ground all of these involve threats to life. We're spoonfed on 'positive thinking', but haven't yet mastered that for when crossed fingers meet with unpleasant reality. No big deal, we won't reach and land and colonise and resupply Mars without loss of life, and the real experts are there to minimise those losses.

My surprise is that any 'expert' could believe we're going to Mars or even the ISP or moon where we've been many times before, without a zillion threats.

I don't understand how anything more complex than a sparkler works, but (hopefully) someone somewhere will have considered your argument while chewing over the finest details of every person and part and byte from design to recovery, this end, and probably a few more at the other.

[OhOh]

What's the time lapse, hours, days , weeks, between sending a message from Mars to Earth. Is a comms relay/fuel storage station in Martian orbit envisaged?

[happynz]

Answer

Radio signals are electromagnetic waves, such as light or X-ray. The speed of electromagnetic waves in vacuum, is 300000km/sec (approximately).

In order to calculate the time of travel with this speed from Earth to Mars, we need to know the distance.

When the Mars and the Earth are at the opposite sides of the Sun, the distance is the largest: approximately: 378 million km. The time needed for an electromagnetic wave to cover this distance is approximately: 21 minute.

The closest distance between Mars and Earth is 78 million km, the time in this case is: 4.3 min.

So the time of travel between Earth and Mars is between 4.3 minutes and 21 minutes, depending on the actual distance between the two planets.
How long does it take for a radio signal to go from Earth to Mars?

[Takeovers]

What's the time lapse, hours, days , weeks, between sending a message from Mars to Earth. Is a comms relay/fuel storage station in Martian orbit envisaged?

Timelapse only from memory, not very precise. From ~6 minutes right now that Mars is very near to over 20 minutes when far away.

No fuel storage in Mars orbit in the SpaceX plans. NASA missions would bring their return fuel from Earth.

Comm relay is a complex issue. NASA and ESA have science probes in Mars orbit that have comm packages and send data back to earth, from their own instruments and doing relay function for the rovers on the ground. ESA but mostly NASA operate huge dishes on earth to receive data, the DSN Deep Space Network. They are located on all continents so they can look in every direction continuously. The indian Mangalyaan orbiter uses the DSN too. The Chinese build their own version of DSN with stations around the world. Presently mostly using ships with large antenna dishes.

SpaceX are planning their own capability as the DSN has not nearly enough data throughput as needed for a manned base. They have not given a lot of info about it but certainly it will be built around their Internet constellation planned for Earth. Which means they will use laser comm with extremely high bandwith. Elon Musk has also stated that with a manned base regular interruptions that happen when the sun is between Mars and Earth are not acceptable. So they will need additional relay sats far away from Earth, probably in Earth Sun L4 or L5, the Lagrange points. In comms like in big rockets and Mars mission plans SpaceX is thinking orders of magnitude more capability than NASA even dreams of.

[OhOh]

^^ Thanks I'll write that down for future reference.

No fuel storage in Mars orbit in the SpaceX plans. NASA missions would bring their return fuel from Earth.

I can see that initially, a return fuel load is suitable. Once the Martian fuel generation has been established it must be easier to lift off from Mars with only enough fuel to reach an orbiting "filling station" and then "top up". It would also allow any system trials of the return rocket until any return to earth fuel availability was needed.

Or is it intended none return?

Elon Musk has also stated that with a manned base regular interruptions that happen when the sun is between Mars and Earth are not acceptable.

He does have a much longer time frame than others. The old get there, stay a few days and return home safely, doesn't appear to be his goal.

Good luck to him and his team, if all comes to fruition he will be remembered as much as Neil Armstrong, if not more.

[Takeovers]

I can see that initially, a return fuel load is suitable. Once the Martian fuel generation has been established it must be easier to lift off from Mars with only enough fuel to reach an orbiting "filling station" and then "top up". It would also allow any system trials of the return rocket until any return to earth fuel availability was needed.

The filling station would need to be filled from somewhere. Bringing fuel from Earth is what NASA plans, at huge cost.

The SpaceX BFS can lift all the fuel needed for earth return and landing from the surface of Mars, where they produce it from water and CO2. They don't need orbital refueling. The problem with this is that people will go to Mars and their return flight depends on getting fuel production operating. But once they have established there is water at the landing site there is little doubt they can do that. They plan on long stays at Mars anyway, no less than 2 years.

One thing I secretly hope for is they find water and CO2 on one of the moons, Phobos or Deimos. In that case they can produce fuel in orbit and won't need to lift it from the surface. But that is speculative and way in the future, if it ever happens.

[bobo746]

A Long March-3B rocket carrying twin BeiDou-3 navigation satellites blasts off from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center in Xichang, Sichuan province, China, on August 25, 2018

[Takeovers]

I am not sure this has made the main stream media. But it was covered in the space forums extensively. A russian Soyuz spaceship docked to the ISS has sprung a leak.

To state this at the beginning there was never a threat to the ISS crew.

The leak was detected by sensors and signalled to ground control. It was not considered severe enough to warrant waking up the astronauts during their sleep period. The leak was found the next day, a 2mm hole, and after some evaluation and trials was fixed as ordered by russian ground control. But in a way this is serious.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/spacestation/...tation-status/

First thing done was that Alexander Gerst, present commander of the ISS put his thumb over the hole.

Next they placed a Kapton tape over it. That reduced the leak rate to 1/7 of the initial leaking but did not stop it completely.

They decided to look at it closely by a small borescope. Then russian ground control decided to fill the hole with a cloth saturated with epoxy. This stopped the leaking and seems to hold until now.

So not a serious threat to the ISS.

But there are a few worrying infos coming out though the russian side is not communicating very openly.

1. The hole was initially described by russian ground control as looking like it was a bore hole done from the inside, not result of a micrometeorite hit.

2. A leaked info said the borescope showed that one fabric layer of the protective coating was missing. There was a layer of glue that was to keep the fabric in place but not the fabric.

3. Another unconfirmed leak coming out of russian sources says the hole was drilled by accident during manufacture and glued closed by the worker to cover up his mistake.


While the incident itself is not very dangerous, this indicates that the rigid quality control that kept russian Soyuz safe for so long is now slipping. Like quality control of especially upper stages of russian rockets has slipped and caused a string of embarassing failures. Those failures have cost Russia its position in launching commercial satellites for western customers. They also destroyed the much awaited russian probe that was to explore the moon of Mars, Phobos. The Phobos Grunt mission I have eagerly awaited.

[BaitongBoy]

Interesting read, that one...

[Takeovers]

Things are getting weirder. The latest twist. The russian news agency RIA reports that Dmitri Rogozin, head of the russian space agency Roskosmos has declared the hole was drilled. It is unclear yet if that happened on the ground or in space. A comission is charged with finding the guilty party.

https://translate.google.com/transla...00191,15700201

It sounds to me like a head will roll. Root causes will not be adressed. Russian space industry will continue its death spiral. They have kept these things out of manned flight so far but that period ends today.

Looking at this hole as shown in a photo the immediate cause may have been a bottle of Vodka or two. I can drill a cleaner hole with my hand tools. Root causes go deeper.

[OhOh]

As you suggest, it does affect their reputation.

[misskit]

That’s terrible! AP has an interesting story on this. I won’t post it all because a lot is just a rehash of earlier info but a former cosmonaut says it could have been sabotaged by someone wanting to leave the Space Station early.

Russia says space station leak could be deliberate sabotage

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-sa...092732031.html

[BaitongBoy]

Appears we will never know the truth...

Let your imagination run wild...

And wait until some other country leaves a wrench in the wrong place...

[BaitongBoy]

Asteroid the size of an office building to whip by us Saturday:

It could be as tall as a 17-story apartment complex, and it will pass by Earth at about half the distance between us and the moon this weekend.

There's no need to worry, though. While the newly discovered near-Earth Asteroid 2018 RC will make a relatively close pass by our planet, it will still safely clear the neighborhood with no chance of a collision.

The University of Hawaii's Asteroid Terrestrial-impact Last Alert System (ATLAS) first spotted the asteroid on Monday, and it's estimated to measure up to 233 feet (71 meters) in diameter. That's the same height as the 17-story Kajima Building (also known as the California Bank and Trust Building) in Los Angeles.