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  1. #126
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    You're really getting carried away, FB- the other on-track incidents you referenced earlier don't involve the possibility of one driver intentionally doing something that at least in part contributed to another driver's death- no one is saying Ward doesn't bear most of the responsibility, but if Stewart was indeed trying to 'teach him a lesson' then he is also culpable to some degree. Maybe he just made an innocent error, but that call can't yet be made.

    Professionals have to adhere to a code of conduct, and how they act under a yellow flag is one of the most important safety rules.

    Personally, I'd say if Stewart did indeed intentionally do something that contributed to the incident and he gets away scot-free, then the sport is already ruined.

    You might indeed be right in your assessment of how it will end up, but it's certainly not a given at this point. If Ward's father feels that his son would still be alive if Stewart hadn't made some sort of intentional move (whether he's right or wrong doesn't really matter- he's entitled to his feelings more so than anyone else), then he should go after him in every way possible, to the greatest degree. The way you just cut the guy down was really beyond the pale.
    There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
    HST

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ghost Of The Moog View Post
    Resolution/settlement of a civil suit for damages would not take place before criminal charges were concluded.

    Civil settlement would bring with it a imputation of liability - and I don't think it would be possible to make that settlement without prejudice to a plea in a separate criminal case.
    OJ Simpson lost in the civil case.

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    I'm not getting carried away with anything, I just find it really irritating when people who have little or no understanding of a given topic make comments when they should just read and learn. Besides, what other on-track incidents are you referring to? I've merely used legal examples all of which most certainly do apply.

    So maybe you and others will take a driver and an eye witnesses view point for it instead. Remember his opinion is going to hold more weight and it's people like him who were close to the incident and not just at the track that the police are going to take seriously in their interviews.. He was only a couple of cars behind which makes his view point far more credible.

    BTW The comments from his father mostly pertained to the crash itself and not even the after crash incident that led to his sons death. I'm not even certain the initial incident was entirely Stewarts fault either, seems he thought he had him passed and was un-sighted at that point as they have no mirrors and he can't look back that far while traveling at those speeds it is just a presence you have but he wasn't cleared yet, the touch was light but tire to tire so it had a harder impact and it was all over, definitely a racing incident by any measure but the young man was taken out of his home race at his home track and felt he needed to save face.

    The below report tells the inside story of racing, to their credit his family has given the go ahead for them to race this weekend and THAT's what I've been trying to get across, the racing community is bigger and closer to their sport then any one person and realize if it gets blown too far out of proportion it will damage the sport for all concerned that many have passed on for generations.

    This driver was also a second generation driver so his father has that same outlook, in spite of his grief, trust me. You accept the nature of the sport or you shouldn't be in it and any driver who doesn't, quickly gets drummed out of it by the other teams and drivers and rightfully so... There's no room in it for whiners, complainers, light weights with weak stomachs or litigators.

    The witness in the story confirms everything that was mentioned earlier in the topic, I wrote as did some others in regards to how a sprint car turns and reacts.

    Driver who witnessed tragedy: Tony Stewart ‘did everything in his power … to avoid (Kevin Ward Jr.)’

    "Lost in all the resulting fallout of the Tony Stewart – Kevin Ward Jr. tragedy is a report by a fellow driver who was also in Saturday night’s fateful race field and witnessed the incident."

    “From what I saw, Tony did everything in his power to turn down away from Kevin to avoid him,” sprint car driver Cory Sparks told Rochester.twc.news.com.

    "Sparks was a few cars behind Stewart on the racetrack but had a clear field of vision of what occurred, and said that videos that have been made public do not tell the whole story."

    “People say that they heard the engine rev up and he gassed it,” Sparks said of Stewart. “In a sprint car, the only way to steer is you steer with the rear wheels as much as you do the steering wheel. In my opinion, what he did was he (Stewart) gassed it to turn down away from him (Ward).”

    Tony Stewart ‘did everything in his power … to avoid [Kevin Ward]‘ | MotorSportsTalk

    There is also a video report with this link, I don't know if it will be available in Thailand or not? Regardless of how this turns out Tony may be as much a victim in all of this too. He may never be able to compete well again he may never get over this, it's the kind of event that ends careers and sometimes even worse then that..

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Maestro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ghost Of The Moog View Post
    Resolution/settlement of a civil suit for damages would not take place before criminal charges were concluded.

    Civil settlement would bring with it a imputation of liability - and I don't think it would be possible to make that settlement without prejudice to a plea in a separate criminal case.
    OJ Simpson lost in the civil case.
    Yes, but after his criminal trial ended and he didn't settle, he fought it vehemently..

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bayliss View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
    No one said anything about not filing a claim, but if one agrees to settlement and confidentiality so what?
    There is a long road to settlement, and a lot of lawyers fees along the way, or as often happens in the US they work on contingency i.e. no fees but a share of the settlement.
    No. there isn't, I keep trying to get you to understand if the litigants are reasonable they'll settle veeeery quickly, the sanctioning body involved, the track and the team will combine to come to a quick and fair resolution..

    There is no president for this in motorsports.

    This was a bush league weekender track.The guy who died was 20 years old. The accused is one of the biggest names in North American motorsports who has a net worth in excess of 70 million dollars.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    Charges can still be filed against Stewart- the preliminary investigation found no criminal intent (which means first-degree murder is ruled out) but there's a possibility that lesser charges could still be levied against him.

    Criminal charge possible for Tony Stewart - Sports - The Boston Globe

    Ward's father also had some harsh words for Stewart- I'm not so sure this will be a quick settlement- if I thought someone caused the death of my son, I wouldn't be in a big rush to be bought off- Stewart can offer whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean it will be accepted.
    So much for 5 million under the table hush hush.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    If you are on the highway and see someone on the road your obligation is to avoid them if possible. Just because they are in your way, it doesn't give you a right to run them down and certainly steering into them would be the difference between a lessor charge and murder.
    It ain't the f'ing highway it's an f'ing race track where professionals play and not in the traffic.. He's culpable in his own death for countless reasons, more so than Stewart in avoiding him.. But you'd have to understand both the sport and from the inside of it to understand it isn't held up to the same standards as every day common drivers nor should it be. Yes it would ruin the sport if it were because that's what separates it from the mundane, that fans go to see.

    Fans go to see drivers get run over and killed?


    And as to that ^^ another driver said it was totally avoidable.....

    Paul Kinney — who was also competing when Stewart’s car struck driver Kevin Ward Jr. on a dirt track in Canandaigua on Saturday — said he clearly saw Ward on the track and managed to dodge him himself.
    “I seen Kevin clear as day. Nobody else ran into him, either,” he told NBC News, noting he was close enough to see Ward’s face after the 20-year-old stepped out of his car, angrily gesturing at Stewart.
    “It’s not a good idea to get out of your car and run towards other cars,’’ Kinney said.
    As for Stewart: “Nobody can speak for Tony. Only Tony knows exactly what happened,” Kinney said.

    Maybe it's you who don't understand the sport.
    As I said (and you dodged) all he had to do was take his foot off the gas, or in fact leave it where it was and he would have glided on by.......

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    Charges can still be filed against Stewart- the preliminary investigation found no criminal intent (which means first-degree murder is ruled out) but there's a possibility that lesser charges could still be levied against him.

    Criminal charge possible for Tony Stewart - Sports - The Boston Globe

    Ward's father also had some harsh words for Stewart- I'm not so sure this will be a quick settlement- if I thought someone caused the death of my son, I wouldn't be in a big rush to be bought off- Stewart can offer whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean it will be accepted.
    No but what would be the point? What else is going to come of it? Selfishly ruin the sport? To what end except simple retribution/revenge/sour grapes for an accident, surely he can see the fault of his sons actions in all of this? if not he's no better than his son and it's obvious where his son got his attitude from that ended up in him getting killed in the first place.. Maybe a good time for introspection from his father.
    Tony Stewart ?



    Last edited by The Maestro; 14-08-2014 at 12:32 PM.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    If you are on the highway and see someone on the road your obligation is to avoid them if possible. Just because they are in your way, it doesn't give you a right to run them down and certainly steering into them would be the difference between a lessor charge and murder.
    It ain't the f'ing highway it's an f'ing race track where professionals play and not in the traffic.. He's culpable in his own death for countless reasons, more so than Stewart in avoiding him.. But you'd have to understand both the sport and from the inside of it to understand it isn't held up to the same standards as every day common drivers nor should it be. Yes it would ruin the sport if it were because that's what separates it from the mundane, that fans go to see.

    Fans go to see drivers get run over and killed?


    And as to that ^^ another driver said it was totally avoidable.....

    Paul Kinney — who was also competing when Stewart’s car struck driver Kevin Ward Jr. on a dirt track in Canandaigua on Saturday — said he clearly saw Ward on the track and managed to dodge him himself.
    “I seen Kevin clear as day. Nobody else ran into him, either,” he told NBC News, noting he was close enough to see Ward’s face after the 20-year-old stepped out of his car, angrily gesturing at Stewart.
    “It’s not a good idea to get out of your car and run towards other cars,’’ Kinney said.
    As for Stewart: “Nobody can speak for Tony. Only Tony knows exactly what happened,” Kinney said.
    Maybe it's you who don't understand the sport.
    As I said (and you dodged) all he had to do was take his foot off the gas, or in fact leave it where it was and he would have glided on by.......
    Since Stewart was aware of the initial crash, he was alerted of the yellow track condition sooner then any other driver. So he will have to explain how all the other drivers seen and avoided the kid but he didn't.

    And Stewart has a history of this wreckless behavior.

  10. #135
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    It's not necessary for me to 'trust you', FB- I'm fully capable of forming my own opinion, and its validity isn't dependent on agreement with your viewpoint- I think that's what you find irritating.

    I read several articles, watched the videotapes, and I think we need something other than 'That's racing' to explain away this particular incident. I can allow for the possibility that you might be right, but you don't seem to allow room for the possibility that you might be wrong, and- as all the facts aren't in- I find that irritating.

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    But the spats are just the latest for Stewart - whom the New York Times called 'NASCAR's resident hothead'.

    Like Ward on Saturday, Stewart, the fourth-highest paid NASCAR driver, has often climbed out of his car following collisions to give the driver a piece of his mind.
    Most notably was in August 2012, when a raging Stewart threw his helmet at Matt Kenseth's car during a Tennessee race. The helmet hit the vehicle square on the hood as it sped past.
    Afterwards, Stewart said he would 'run over' Kenseth 'every chance [he] got'.
    Then in March 2013, he accused driver Joey Logano of blocking his car in a race in Fontana, California and when it was over, he stormed towards him, shoved him and threatened to run him over.
    The two men were eventually separated by their crews, but Stewart remained fuming.
    'If he ever turns down across in front of me again, I don't care what lap it is, he won't make it through the other end of it,' he said after a confrontation with driver Joey Logano in March 2013.
    'Dumb little [expletive] drives us clear down to the end field. He wants to [expletive] about everyone else but he's the one that drives like a little [expletive]. I'm gonna bust his ass,' he added to Fox.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Maestro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Ghost Of The Moog View Post
    Resolution/settlement of a civil suit for damages would not take place before criminal charges were concluded.

    Civil settlement would bring with it a imputation of liability - and I don't think it would be possible to make that settlement without prejudice to a plea in a separate criminal case.
    OJ Simpson lost in the civil case.
    Because lots of evidence that was excluded from the criminal trial was included in the civil one..

    Not only don't you understand sport, you don't understand the law either.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    It's not necessary for me to 'trust you', FB- I'm fully capable of forming my own opinion, and its validity isn't dependent on agreement with your viewpoint- I think that's what you find irritating.

    I read several articles, watched the videotapes, and I think we need something other than 'That's racing' to explain away this particular incident. I can allow for the possibility that you might be right, but you don't seem to allow room for the possibility that you might be wrong, and- as all the facts aren't in- I find that irritating.
    Who's using "that's racing" to explain away this incident? It's "That's what happens when you are dumb enough to run on to a race track full of moving race cars".

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    It's not necessary for me to 'trust you', FB- I'm fully capable of forming my own opinion, and its validity isn't dependent on agreement with your viewpoint- I think that's what you find irritating.

    I read several articles, watched the videotapes, and I think we need something other than 'That's racing' to explain away this particular incident. I can allow for the possibility that you might be right, but you don't seem to allow room for the possibility that you might be wrong, and- as all the facts aren't in- I find that irritating.
    Who's using "that's racing" to explain away this incident? It's "That's what happens when you are dumb enough to run on to a race track full of moving race cars".
    No kidding, Harry- no one (certainly not me in any of my posts) said Ward didn't bear most of the responsibility, but that doesn't excuse the fact that- even in the face of his stupidity- he would most likely still be alive if Stewart had been where he was supposed to be (which was the same place the rest of the drivers were). If Stewart did indeed purposely drive close to him rather than move to the inside of the track while under a yellow flag, he is culpable to some degree.

    Do you disagree with that?

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    It's not necessary for me to 'trust you', FB- I'm fully capable of forming my own opinion, and its validity isn't dependent on agreement with your viewpoint- I think that's what you find irritating.

    I read several articles, watched the videotapes, and I think we need something other than 'That's racing' to explain away this particular incident. I can allow for the possibility that you might be right, but you don't seem to allow room for the possibility that you might be wrong, and- as all the facts aren't in- I find that irritating.
    Who's using "that's racing" to explain away this incident? It's "That's what happens when you are dumb enough to run on to a race track full of moving race cars".
    No kidding, Harry- no one (certainly not me in any of my posts) said Ward didn't bear most of the responsibility, but that doesn't excuse the fact that- even in the face of his stupidity- he would most likely still be alive if Stewart had been where he was supposed to be (which was the same place the rest of the drivers were). If Stewart did indeed purposely drive close to him rather than move to the inside of the track while under a yellow flag, he is culpable to some degree.

    Do you disagree with that?
    Yes. And so do the Police.

  16. #141
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    ^

    Really? Strange the police are still investigating the incident, then...

    All police have said is that there are no charges being filed against Stewart 'at this time' (they may or may not be filed later pending the final outcome), but there's no'agreement' by police that he's been exonerated of wrongdoing- at this point they don't agree with either of us. They've said there's no evidence of 'intent' (meaning he didn't intentionally run Ward over- I don't think he did either) but that doesn't exclude other charges possibly being brought against him. In the end he might be completely exonerated, but it's too early to say they've made that call.

    http://www.cbssports.com/general/eye...still-possible

    Tony Stewart could still face criminal charges even if it is decided that he didn't intend to kill -- or even hurt or scare -- Kevin Ward Jr. Saturday night in New York state.

    Speaking to the Associated Press, Corey Rayburn Yung, a law professor, said that under New York law Stewart could potentially be charged with manslaughter if it is proven that he acted recklessly.

    "The question over whether someone was reckless is a factual one, and one a prosecutor might let a jury decide," Yung said.

    An investigation by the Ontario County Sheriff Philip Povero is ongoing and expected to last at least two more weeks. Povero says that he has not seen evidence of criminal intent thus far.

    "In sports we tend to allow all sorts of conduct we'd never allow in another circumstance," Yung told the AP. "But this isn't a collision. It's not in that ballpark; it's something you don't expect. This is a more complicated scenario. We're assuming Stewart didn't mean to do this, and yet a death resulted."

    Essentially, the investigation will have to determine that Ward Jr.'s death resulted from events that occur in the normal course of an auto race. If not, then a manslaughter charge could be levied.

    "The worst thing that could happen for Stewart is if his story doesn't seem to match other evidence," Yung said. "Because then it might call into question his own story."
    Last edited by FailSafe; 14-08-2014 at 03:06 PM.

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    You are dealing in hypotheticals "could be", "if", etc.

    The fact is:

    NASCAR champion Tony Stewart demonstrated “no criminal behaviour” during an incident in which he accidentally struck and killed a fellow driver, US police have ruled.


    "At this time there are no facts that exist that support any criminal behaviour or conduct or that any probable cause of a criminal act in this investigation," said Ontario County Sheriff spokesman Philip Povero.
    The fact is that the Police have to investigate the death and give a cause. I'm pretty sure the cause they agree on will be some permutation involving a very stupid man running in front of fast moving cars.

  18. #143
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    Obviously my opinion is hypothetical as there isn't a final answer at this point.

    I'm simply going by what's been reported so far- the investigation is ongoing, and the police have said they see no evidence of intent, but that charges could still be filed- you're simply speculating that they won't be, and I'm speculating that they might.

    Until there's a conclusion, your opinion is just as hypothetical as mine. You may be right, but there is a definite possibility that charges will be filed, and it might take a while. It took them a year to file charges against George Zimmerman...

    Do you think it's impossible that Stewart drove close to Ward on purpose? If you knew a bit about Stewart's on-track history of poor behavior, you might not be so quick to give him the benefit of the doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    ^

    Obviously my opinion is hypothetical as there isn't a final answer at this point.

    I'm simply going by what's been reported so far- the investigation is ongoing, and the police have said they see no evidence of intent, but that charges could still be filed- you're simply speculating that they won't be, and I'm speculating that they might.

    Until there's a conclusion, your opinion is just as hypothetical as mine. You may be right, but there is a definite possibility that charges will be filed, and it might take a while. It took them a year to file charges against George Zimmerman...

    Do you think it's impossible that Stewart drove close to Ward on purpose? If you knew a bit about Stewart's on-track history of poor behavior, you might not be so quick to give him the benefit of the doubt.
    As I said, the only way the situation will change is if new evidence comes up, such as a closeup HD video of Stewart steering his card at Ward whilst screaming "Die you bastard Die!".

    Which I don't think is going to happen.

    It will probably be ruled "Death by gross stupidity".

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    ^

    As I said, there's no argument that Ward bears most of the responsibility for what happened- I also agree that it would be hard to prove if Stewart did indeed try to intentionally pass by close to him, but if he did, he should suffer some sort of consequence beyond possibly shelling out monetarily, and hopefully the truth will come out.

    I'm very interested to hear Stewart's statement (not that I expect him to put his head in the noose).
    Last edited by FailSafe; 14-08-2014 at 03:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Maestro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    Charges can still be filed against Stewart- the preliminary investigation found no criminal intent (which means first-degree murder is ruled out) but there's a possibility that lesser charges could still be levied against him.

    Criminal charge possible for Tony Stewart - Sports - The Boston Globe

    Ward's father also had some harsh words for Stewart- I'm not so sure this will be a quick settlement- if I thought someone caused the death of my son, I wouldn't be in a big rush to be bought off- Stewart can offer whatever he wants, but that doesn't mean it will be accepted.
    So much for 5 million under the table hush hush.
    Who ever said anything about under the table, moron?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necron99
    Fans go to see drivers get run over and killed?
    No, why don't pick and choose and then add some spin FFS ok?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    It's not necessary for me to 'trust you', FB- I'm fully capable of forming my own opinion, and its validity isn't dependent on agreement with your viewpoint- I think that's what you find irritating.

    I read several articles, watched the videotapes, and I think we need something other than 'That's racing' to explain away this particular incident. I can allow for the possibility that you might be right, but you don't seem to allow room for the possibility that you might be wrong, and- as all the facts aren't in- I find that irritating.
    Who's using "that's racing" to explain away this incident? It's "That's what happens when you are dumb enough to run on to a race track full of moving race cars".
    No kidding, Harry- no one (certainly not me in any of my posts) said Ward didn't bear most of the responsibility, but that doesn't excuse the fact that- even in the face of his stupidity- he would most likely still be alive if Stewart had been where he was supposed to be (which was the same place the rest of the drivers were). If Stewart did indeed purposely drive close to him rather than move to the inside of the track while under a yellow flag, he is culpable to some degree.

    Do you disagree with that?
    But you're arguing with me when that's all I've been saying too. He has to be held accountable for his own actions and then what happened from that point on is not reversible but had he NOT gotten out of his car in a huff over a minor incident that caused him no harm and his car only slight damage none of this would be an issue so in order just to make it right it will be handled in way that's best for all concerned and that seems to be a problem with many here.

    It's racing FFS in cars, not boxing on the track, and all of those Stewart examples are perfect for proving the case not supporting anything else as in every one Stewart is well away from those cars and no one claimed he was an angel but fact is HE"S still alive and those actions were no less stupid either, but it's along way from intentionally running someone down in front of hundreds of fans..

    As for "being where he's supposed to be" that is nonsense, every driver learns from day one to follow their racing line even on yellow flag laps as much as possible so that's what he was doing as were several other cars on that high line, of course he had to come down lower where the actual car was but not so much as it was all the way up to the wall. That's insider info. so you likely won't find it on Google trust me, like the other info i posted is as well..

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    Can't believe this crap thread is still going, in the larger scheme of things, who gives a fuck.

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    ^Yep...Dawg, you've pulled a few sleds in your time...If you were run off the trail, wouldn't you just cut yourself out of the harness and get on with your life?...

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