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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by chassamui
    Robert Kitson interviews Stuart Lancaster in the Guardian.
    He makes obvious points about the scrums...that debacle between the All Blacks and Italy at the San Siro a few years back was tragic

  2. #152
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    Welsh lucky to have an easy start with so many forwards missing. Hibbard? Ryan Jones? Ian Evans?
    Gatland has had to call up inexperienced replacements.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by chassamui
    Welsh lucky to have an easy start
    i agree

    first time i can ever remember us having italy first up...there must have been another occasion but i'm struggling to remember one

    i think evans will be lucky not to get banned til the end of the tournament
    it was blatant and incredibly stupid stamping for the hell of it

  4. #154
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    Brian Moore makes some interesting observations on the TMO.

    Time to give referees their authority back and bin the TMO bore-fest

    In May this year the International Rugby Board will review the Television Match Official amendments allowing TMOs to scrutinise acts other than those of scoring

    Gone in slow motion: Ospreys' Ian Evans was red-carded after a long deliberation and numerous slow motion replays by the TMO in the Heineken Cup clash with Leinster at the weekend Photo: GETTY IMAGES









    By Brian Moore

    11:00PM GMT 19 Jan 2014

    116 Comments


    Previous 2012 trials were well received and it is likely they will be made law. However, the IRB should pause and consider that the increased use of the TMO, and the time taken, is now seriously annoying a majority of rugby supporters.

    This is not easy, as conflicting points are complex, yet it is crucial a balance is achieved, addressing as many concerns as is reasonably practicable. We want as many decisions as possible to be right but the IRB’s own stipulation is that the use of the TMO must not “adversely impact on the character of the game”.

    Well, at the moment it is and if left unamended it will get worse. As any watcher will tell you the atmosphere at games is severely diluted when reviews are numerous and lengthy, especially when the reviewed footage is not shown publicly and no explanation is given about what and how a decision is made.

    If the ‘correct decision’ principle is taken to its extreme it would mean constant review of all decisions. After reviewing detailed statistics, the IRB concluded the vast majority of tries at elite level are scored from two phases, so limiting reviews to that point would allow TMOs to address most match-affecting incidents. This necessarily means a minority of major decisions are not reviewed and people just have to accept this.

    TMOs are supposed to help officials make correct decisions but it is becoming evident that it encourages them not to make decisions until they have TMO assistance. This does not strengthen the officials’ authority; it makes them look indecisive.

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    IRB protocol states that anything reviewed prior to the act of scoring, including foul play, must be “clear and obvious” yet the interminable replays of many incidents shows that they are not. They are often being used to rule on highly marginal points.
    It is even more confusing when a referee uses footage played on the stadium screen to make up his mind, in which case you do not need a TMO; stadium screens or a sideline monitor would be sufficient, as per the NFL in the US.
    Some may point to the non-obvious, but still important, incidents like the foul-play rulings last weekend on Ian Evans and Nathan White and it is true that they were highlighted by the TMO. These would have been picked up by the citing officer but that would not aid the opposing team as those players would not have been removed from the field. This would be so even if the Rugby League sanction of being put on report was adopted.
    In the end, you either have to put up with the ever lengthening reviews of all possible incidents, many of which are no more than handbags-at-dawn, or you leave it to the citing officer. If the latter, you must accept that your team might benefit in an unimportant game and suffer in a crucial game that decides a league or cup.
    The IRB has options, none of which are perfect. Although controversial, it needs to decide whether a TMO is needed or just access to footage for game officials.
    It could let officials decide everything and have a limited number of challenges per team.
    If we do not go back to reviews just for the act of scoring, anything else must be time limited. If it takes more than a minute, it isn’t clear and obvious. If the act of scoring is unclear the benefit of any doubt should be given to the attacking team.
    Rugby should adopt something similar to cricket’s ‘umpire’s call’ making a refereeing decision mandatory and then requiring the TMO to find compelling evidence to overturn it. If referees just ask “yes or no” what is the point? Conversions could be taken during reviews – if it is successful and a try, it counts; if not, you have not taken another minute off the game.
    Reviewed footage must be shown publicly and the TMO must explain what is being decided and how. Thereafter, it should not be necessary for the referee to explain the decision in detail to various players.
    Having seen this situation develop and fearing where it will lead, I am now in favour of binning TMOs and allowing match officials to use technology to back their calls, with citing officers to deal with omissions. This would restore the independent authority of the referee and assistants. Technology has improved things but must be used correctly. Ultimately, you must accept that mistakes, even bad ones, will be made, as they are presently with the new protocol. However, that would be better than the incessant TMO bore-fest that is presently ruining games.
    Heart of Gold and a Knob of butter.

  5. #155
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    I agree, why have referee's if they have to rely on a TMO this also applies to the two linesmen?
    I personally think it detracts from the momentum of the game.
    In the old days if an infringement or foul was missed by the referee or linesmen
    then it was tough titty and everyone just got on with the game. There was no point in arguing the toss.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamiejambos
    I personally think it detracts from the momentum of the game.
    It is the time wasting at scrum time that upsets the momentum of the game...the speed of the current game means it is difficult for even the best referees to keep up and as was shown in rugby league putting an extra referee in the end zone was a failure.

  7. #157
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    It's hard to say really, I can see both sides.

    Some vital decisions lead to tries which change the game entirely, literally win it, wrongfully, for one team, so stopping the game for 30 seconds to get the right result seems reasonable. But, there are a lot more stoppages in the game than there used to be; I don't think it detracts from the crowds experience, may add theatre, but I'm not sure that's a good thing either. I'm happy enough as it is; it'd be nice for the scrums to work well though, but in the professional era, a team under pressure just kills the scrum as a lesser of 2 evils...
    Cycling should be banned!!!

  8. #158
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    How about having a touch judge come on and supervise the other side of the scrum?
    We all know what devious bastards props are.

  9. #159
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    I have been saying that for years Chass.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by chassamui
    How about having a touch judge come on and supervise the other side of the scrum?
    That isn't the problem...unless the referee has been a prop he hasn't a clue...and that Aussie ref who had been a prop...Erikson I think it was...was just as useless...scrums are becoming the bane of the game...but that is worth another thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamiejambos
    I have been saying that for years Chass.
    You ever played in the front row?

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo
    but in the professional era, a team under pressure just kills the scrum as a lesser of 2 evils...
    Sadly true...and there is no easy fix

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamiejambos
    I have been saying that for years Chass.
    You ever played in the front row?[/QUOTE]

    Yes I have , and if you have you'll know that they are not fun places to be.
    Then according to you I will only have played in pretend scrums in pretend teams in Scotland and Ireland both with imaginary pitches and an imaginary host of
    Brian O'Driscoll's. So I've done you a favour by posting it for you to save you wasting your time.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamiejambos
    Yes I have
    loose head tight head or hooker?...I will wait while you Google it

  14. #164
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    scrum half during my school days but after putting on a lot of bulk (5 feet and not much and 14.5 stones) i was a converted hooker for 2 years until i nearly broke my neck after a scrummage collapse at university

    that was 20 years ago....never played the game again

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
    scrum half during my school days
    So you are JamieJambos from Ireland/Scotland/Wales?

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon View Post
    scrum half during my school days but after putting on a lot of bulk (5 feet and not much and 14.5 stones) i was a converted hooker for 2 years until i nearly broke my neck after a scrummage collapse at university

    that was 20 years ago....never played the game again
    Loose-head at school and second row in Bangkok.

    Now sofa and beer holder.

  17. #167
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    So you guys would know that no front row forward enjoys a collapsed scrum...especially the hooker...most collapses are caused by either poor technique or loss of control because of the pressure from the opposing prop...the problem with the scrums is the traditional requirement for rugby to be a brute force game in the forwards with little thought for the spectators...that is ok for the diehards but rugby league, which was the same game as rugby union for 20 years after its inception soon learned it was just plain boring...over 100 years later Twickenham haven't learned the lesson

  18. #168
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    I am hoping England can devote some time to teaching the hooker to throw the ball in properly at lineouts. Can't afford to give the French forwards too much ball.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bayliss View Post
    So you guys would know that no front row forward enjoys a collapsed scrum...especially the hooker...most collapses are caused by either poor technique or loss of control because of the pressure from the opposing prop...the problem with the scrums is the traditional requirement for rugby to be a brute force game in the forwards with little thought for the spectators...that is ok for the diehards but rugby league, which was the same game as rugby union for 20 years after its inception soon learned it was just plain boring...over 100 years later Twickenham haven't learned the lesson
    Totally disagree. I think League is dull. It's like basketball rugby. I love the forward play in Union and would hate the game to go the way of League.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
    Totally disagree. I think League is dull.
    That wasn't the issue, it is the rugby scrum that is the problem, league changed from 8 forwards to 6 to solve it over 100 years ago...it isn't a problem in league now...are you saying there are no problems with the rugby scrum?
    Quote Originally Posted by chassamui
    I am hoping England can devote some time to teaching the hooker to throw the ball in properly at lineouts.
    It is an important role now
    Quote Originally Posted by jamiejambos
    Yes I have , and if you have you'll know that they are not fun places to be.
    I have question for you front row experts that you can't Google...what is a loose arm?

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bayliss View Post
    So you guys would know that no front row forward enjoys a collapsed scrum...especially the hooker...most collapses are caused by either poor technique or loss of control because of the pressure from the opposing prop...t


    It's a piece of piss to drop a scrum.Esp if you are a tighthead.

  22. #172
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    The new 'non-contact' scrum used in the autumn internationals did seem to stop most of the issues with the scrums, so I would leave it like that rather than make more damaging changes to the scrum.

  23. #173
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    The rules for the scrum are fine, the problem is the referees not enforcing them.

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by chassamui
    I am hoping England can devote some time to teaching the hooker to throw the ball in properly at lineouts.
    Hartley isn't too bad at throwing in, is decent in the scrum and strong around the pitch. I like him. Plus, his tall Northampton mate is playing really well, could be player of the 6 nations - he's matured, strong, fast, good technique, tackles hard, turns ball over, wins the line-out, a lot to like about the lad.







    Still short of an entire backline though...

  25. #175
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    i played as a hooker from 88 to 91

    throwing the ball in was the hardest part of my job
    i used to have to do it with one hand

    can anybody tell me when 2 handed throw ins by hookers became legal?

    i've tried to find evidence myself but have failed

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