Thread: House speaker recommends fast-track charter rewrite

There are actually logical, pragmatic Democrat supporters out there- I know some. Unfortunately they are not to be found on TD, thus these threads just go round in circles.
Thaksin is a villain, Pol Pot and Hitler combined. Sob.
The Peasant vote means nothing. Sob.
The two greatest election victories in Thai history were bought and paid for. Sob.

Some smart entrepreneur could make a fortune selling Democrat nappies, methinks.

^ the point remains sab is you don't accept those arguments because you are blind yourself to a cause you don't even understand

those arguments remain true even if you don't like to hear them,

Originally Posted by SteveCM

More than happy to let TD readers judge for themselves.

I am sure your fan club, like Calgary and friends, are perfectly satisfied with the logic of your arguments

^^ Yes, sigmund butterfy. Go and analyse your own dreams. Sob.

It is a bit pointless amending an illegal Constitution- much easier just to toss it out, and amend the legal Constituion as required.

Originally Posted by sabang

Go and analyse your own dreams.

why would I do that ? mine are boring, yours are much more fun to analyze

Yingluck says Pheu Thai has never discussed amending Article 309 - The Nation

Yingluck says Pheu Thai has never discussed amending Article 309

December 19, 2011 2:09 pm

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said Monday that her Pheu Thai Party has never discussed the amendment of Article 309 of the Constitution in details.

"We have not yet discussed it in details," Yingluck replied when asked to confirm reports that the Pheu Thai planned to amend the article, which sanctioned actions of the 2006 coup makers, especially investigations by the Assets Examination Committee.

Article 309 says: "Any act that its legality and constitutionality has been recognised by the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand (Interim), B.E. 2549, including all acts related therewith committed whether before or after the date of promulgation of this Constitution shall be deemed constitutionally under this Constitution."

Observers said if the article is repealed, all cases against former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra might be dropped.

The Nation

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

"The criteria for charter framer candidates are not too specific, as we want to be open to public participation. They might be really general, such as a minimum age, and not being insane.

They should put that last condition in for all government jobs.

Amending Article 309 aimed at pardoning Thaksin: Democrats - The Nation

Amending Article 309 aimed at pardoning Thaksin: Democrats

THE NATION December 20, 2011 1:00 am

The opposition Democrat Party said yesterday that Pheu Thai's proposal to amend Article 309 of the Constitution was aimed at granting amnesty to fugitive ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Wirat Kanlayasiri, a Democrat MP from Songkhla, said if the government really wanted to achieve reconciliation, they should follow the independent Truth for Reconciliation Commission's suggestion stating that the Constitution Court's verdict on Thaksin's asset-concealment case was the root cause of the conflicts.

"Thaksin should have come back to face justice, but instead, the government is trying to blame the 2006 coup as the root cause. All they have done is try to help Thaksin," he said.

Article 309 says: "Any act that, in its legality and constitutionality, has been recognised by the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand (Interim), B.E. 2549, including all acts related therewith committed whether before or after the date of promulgation of this Constitution shall be deemed constitutionally under this Constitution."

Since the interim charter granted amnesty to coup makers, Article 309, which sanctions the interim charter, is also seen as a double guarantee that the coup makers against Thaksin remain absolved.

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said yesterday that her Pheu Thai Party has never discussed the amendment of Article 309.

"We have not yet discussed it in detail," Yingluck replied when asked to confirm reports that the Pheu Thai planned to amend Article 309, which sanctions the actions of the 2006 coup makers and investigations led by the Assets Examination Committee.

Originally Posted by sabang

It is a bit pointless amending an illegal Constitution- much easier just to toss it out, and amend the legal Constituion as required.

Indeed, and further, it would be illegal to ammend an illegal constitution.

You can't argue with that

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Yingluck says Pheu Thai has never discussed amending Article 309 - The Nation

Yingluck says Pheu Thai has never discussed amending Article 309

December 19, 2011 2:09 pm

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra said Monday that her Pheu Thai Party has never discussed the amendment of Article 309 of the Constitution in details.

"We have not yet discussed it in details," Yingluck replied when asked to confirm reports that the Pheu Thai planned to amend the article, which sanctioned actions of the 2006 coup makers, especially investigations by the Assets Examination Committee.

Article 309 says: "Any act that its legality and constitutionality has been recognised by the Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand (Interim), B.E. 2549, including all acts related therewith committed whether before or after the date of promulgation of this Constitution shall be deemed constitutionally under this Constitution."

Observers said if the article is repealed, all cases against former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra might be dropped.

The Nation

They havn't.........., well its about bloody time they did.

Get on with it or move over for someone who will

You can't argue with that

Our 'best charter' will remain a thing of the past - The Nation

stoppage time

Our 'best charter' will remain a thing of the past

Tulsathit Taptim
tulsathit@nationgroup.com December 21, 2011 1:00 am


Although it came into existence in 1997, the "People's Constitution", or its "spirit" to be exact, will continue to stay ahead of its time.

The now-defunct charter was like an ultra-smart mobile phone - it was meant to "connect" but somehow was misused so badly that those possessing it ended up being isolated. Reviving that Constitution would not make any difference. Thais will continue to be the chicken that unearths a gemstone.

Most of those clamouring for the charter's revival may simply want to give the 2006 coup-makers a big slap in the face. Or they may want to romanticise a political cause a little bit. Some may just think it's trendy. Others may not even know exactly what they wish for.

Truth is, the "People's Constitution" was not designed to be a symbolic triumph of democracy over dictatorship. It was not intended to be a trophy on the shelf, something one could look at to have good, old, victorious days flashed back. The 1997 charter needed nurturing, but at the same time it was a most fragile political organism. You forgot to take care of it for a day and it would die. Expose it to a slightly polluted environment and it would be gone.

Thaksin Shinawatra, who publicly loves this charter to bits, is by no means its sincerest advocate. That's one of the biggest ironies of this country's political crisis. After attempts to impose the 1997 Constitution's will on him triggered a chain of events leading to the existing political divide, now his closest aides are saying that resuscitating the coup-abolished charter could help bring reconciliation to Thailand.

To add to the charter's myth, the latest Abac poll has shown that the Thai public is almost evenly split on the proposed reinstatement of the 1997 Constitution. The poll says 38.4 per cent of 1,994 respondents disagree with the reintroduction but would not rally against attempts to revive it, while 9.2 per cent disagree and would protest against it.

Of the respondents, 35.2 per cent agree with the proposed reinstatement but would not rally in its support, while 17.2 per cent would campaign to bring that Constitution back. Are we seeing the charter differently, or has the charter become what we made it up to be, not what it's supposed to be?

True advocates of the 1997 charter used to quip that Thailand was not ready for it yet. In many ways, that was not an overstatement. The check and balance mechanisms, as well as safeguards against corruption, proscribed in that Constitution were hailed by everyone but politicians. People with good memories will remember that rigid constitutional restrictions on shareholdings were decried as a trap intended to block one political rising star and telecom tycoon named Thaksin Shinawatra.

That charter had other strong points, remarkably its promotion of civil liberty, human rights and participatory politics. But firm, intricate measures against corruption formed its very soul. For decades, political graft had undermined Thai democracy and courted opportunistic military intervention. The "People's Constitution" was considered Thailand's new hope, a corruption-eradicating tool that could clear the path for a fledging democracy.

The charter's alarm bell rang when someone who had tens of billions of baht of vested interests in telecom businesses was allowed to wear another hat - as one who decided which way the industry went, and who regulated its course. And this man came with fishy baggage as well. He wasn't being totally honest about how much of a stake he had in his own empire, which was listed on the stock market.

If Thaksin had really understood this charter, he would have turned away from politics at that time. Instead, he created the impression that the Constitution was being abused to stop a patriotic business tycoon on the fast political track. The rest is history. And just as his aides were still singing the 1997 Constitution's praises, he was in Burma a few days ago, meeting all the people that matter when it comes to future business cooperation with Thailand.

What message is Thaksin trying to send? That the 1997 charter is the best but for its regulations against possible conflicts of interest or other measures designed to pre-empt corruption? Make no mistake here. Politicians, especially those in power, are allowed to do what he did - pursue deals that could benefit their countries. But as far as Thaksin goes, questions will continue to hang over his head about what motivated him - national interest or his own?

If Thaksin keeps asking "What's wrong with that?" at least he should do the 1997 Constitution some favours. He should let it rest in peace.

Thai-ASEAN News Network

Pheu Thai Rallies Support for Charter Change

UPDATE : 21 December 2011

The government is working to gather support from the coalition members for its plan to amend the Article 291 of the Charter, which would allow the appointment of a new constitution drafting assembly.

Pheu Thai MP Udomdej Rattanasatien from Nonthaburi Province, who is also the government chief whip, has announced that the government is considering to amend the Article 291 of the Charter to pave the way for the appointment of a new constitution drafting assembly.


Udomdej added that the government will consult with the coalition members on the matter.

Meanwhile, MP Paradorn Prisananuntagul, a government whip from Chart Thai Pattana Party, says that he has been informed of the Pheu Thai Party's intention to change the charter.

He expects the government whip meeting to take place today.

At any rate, Paradorn says that personally, he supports the idea to amend Article 291.

However, he suggests that the government must allow the drafting assembly to carry out its duty independently once it is formed.

Paradorn has pointed out that the Chart Thai Pattana Party will hold its general assembly on Friday and the issue will be discussed then.

The Pheu Thai MP has also refused to speculate on a possible Cabinet reshuffle, saying that it is solely up to the prime minister.

Pheu Thai delays charter rewrite - The Nation

Pheu Thai delays charter rewrite

December 21, 2011 1:24 pm

Chief coalition whip Udomdej Rattanasatien on Wednesday confirmed that the Pheu Thai Party had resolved to slow down its push for charter amendments.

"The coalition will delay the charter amendments until the time is right," he said.

Earlier the main coalition party planned to sponsor a motion to rewrite the charter at the today's reconvening of the House session following recess.

Udomdej said Pheu Thai MPs might air their individual views on charter rewrite without reflecting on the coalition's stand.


The Nation

^ I wonder why the sudden change of heart, after they appeared to be going for this hammer and tongs?

I guess something else will reveal itself in due course....

They were warned off it by Gen Sondhi

Bangkok Post : Chalerm: Charter change not urgent

Chalerm: Charter change not urgent

• Published: 21/12/2011 at 03:17 PM
• Online news:

Amending the constitution is not urgent and should be put off until the government has solved more important problems, Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yubamrung said on Wednesday.

Mr Chalerm said the Pheu Thai Party had promised the people during the election campaign that it would amend the 2007 constitution in one year, but the government had been in office for only four months, he said.

Before amending the charter, the government had more important tasks to accomplish. These included suppression of illicit drugs, solving economic problems, getting rid of lese majeste websites and suppression of corruption, he said.

On the issue of charter amendment, Mr Chalerm said it had been widely agreed that changing Section 291 should be first step to make way for the setting up of a constitution drafting assembly (CDA) to draft a new constitution for the people to approve at a public referendum before being forwarded to parliament.

Regarding drug suppression, Mr Chalerm said networks had been created under a programme for members of the public to act as the eyes and ears of the government.

After the mobile cabinet meeting in Chiang Mai on Jan 16, he would hold a meeting of agencies involved in drug suppression before going to meet officials in 20 northeastern and eight northern provinces to stress the government's policy on this matter.

On the economic issue, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra had been working hard to solve economic problems, he said.

Mr Chalerm said the committee on suppression of lese majeste websites under his chairmanship had taken a number of measures to stop insults to the monarchy on social networks.

The government had also given much importance to combating corruption, particularly a case involving former transport permanent secretary Sopoj Saplom who is being investigated for being unusually wealthy.

Col Apiwan Wiriyachai, a Pheu Thai Party list MP, denied the party had an internal rift over constitutional amendment, especially Section 291.

The MP said he and Mr Chalerm shared the same opinion at a party meeting on this matter -- that the charter amendment draft prepared by the CDA should undergo public hearings and a public referendum.

"It has been agreed that the party would push for charter amendment, but we have to wait for the right time and other favourable factors," Col Apiwan said.

-----
Bangkok Post : Pheu Thai defers charter amendment

Pheu Thai defers charter amendment

• Published: 21/12/2011 at 03:15 PM
• Online news:

The Pheu Thai Party has resolved to defer plans to file a charter amendment motion, government chief whip chief Udomdech Ratanasthien told a parliamentary session on Wednesday.

The party had agreed to postpone the issue of constitutional amendment until a “proper time’’, he said.

Under the circumstances, if any government MPs want to make a comment on the charter amendment matter they should clearly state that it is their personal opinion, not a government resolution, said Mr Udomdech.

Any formal opinion about the charter amendment, such as when exactly it would happen, should come from the government or a panel recognised as a charter drafting body, said Mr Udomdech.

On Tuesday, Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong Nopparit said after a party meeting that members discussed the issue of charter amendment and many agreed with the party's move to amend the constitution, which was a key part of its election campaign pledges.

Mr Prompong, however, said the party had not reached a decision on the matter although it agreed in principle that with the plan to amend Section 291 to allow the setting-up of a new constitution drafting assembly (CDA).

Details of the proposed amendments would be discussed later, probably after the New Year, Mr Prompong said.

Previously, Pheu Thai list MP and red shirt co-leader Weng Tojirakarn said the party's legal team had completed drafting a bill to amend Section 291, which allows only cabinet ministers and MPs to put forward proposed amendments to the charter, rather than a CDA.

Under the proposed amendment, the CDA would comprise 97 members -- 77 elected from each of the current provinces and 20 appointed academics.

A Pheu Thai source said possible changes would also include provisions covering the dissolution of political parties and the five-year political ban.

The source also said some MPs in the dovish wing of the party suggested it adopt as a model PM's Office Order 66/23 issued by the Prem Tinsulanonda government in 1980 to win over communist insurgents by granting them a general amnesty.

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Ok - can someone explain why the leader of the coup against the legitimately elected government of old squareface is actually heading the "reconcilliation committee"?

...

Probably for the same reason that a person that participated in failed military coup, did time in jail and was exiled for over year is now the main Deputy Prime Minister.


Funny place ain't it.

TH

Bangkok Post : UDD to press for charter rewrite

UDD to press for charter rewrite

• Published: 21/12/2011 at 05:50 PM
• Online news:

The red-shirt United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) will continue its campaign to gather 50,000 signatures to support a petition to amend the constitution immediately after the New Year festival, a spokesman said on Wednsday.

No matter what the Pheu Thai Party-led government’s stance on calls for amendments to the 2007 constitution, the UDD would campaign to drum up support for its bid to amend the charter right after the New Year holiday, d UDD spokesman Worawut Wichaidit said.

UDD chairwoman Thida Thavornseth said the UDD was not sure what Pheu Thai would do next about the charter amendment, having vowed during its election campaign that charter amendment would be a priority if won government.

As for the UDD, she said, its task would never end until the 2007 charter is amended.

Bangkok Post : Charter bill to House this session

Charter bill to House this session

• Published: 22/12/2011 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

Government whips have agreed to set up a process to amend the constitution and will submit a bill to parliament during this parliamentary session.

Government chief whip Udomdech Rattanasathien said the government whips had agreed with a plan to amend Section 291 of the constitution to pave the way for the setting up of a constitution drafting assembly (CDA).

The section allows only ministers and MPs to put forward proposed amendments to the charter, rather than a CDA.

Amending the constitution is part of the government's policy statement delivered to parliament, which must be fulfilled, Mr Udomdech said.

He added the government and MPs will also present their own versions of a charter amendment bill to parliament alongside the whips' bill.

The new parliamentary session began yesterday and lasts until April 18 next year.

Mr Udomdech expected the government whips to table the charter rewrite bill to parliament right after New Year.

About 24 bills are awaiting parliamentary endorsement with another 39 financial bills needing approval by the cabinet, Mr Udomdech said.

The government was in no position to fix a timeframe for the CDA to do its job. "It is up to the CDA to determine when to finish the bill," Mr Udomdech said.

Pheu Thai list MP Apiwan Wiriyachai yesterday said the constitution resulted from the Sept 20, 2006 coup and it is only right that it was amended to correct the wrong.

"What is undemocratic must be changed," Col Apiwan said.

He insisted the charter change bid was not intended to benefit any particular individual.

Bhumjaithai Party list MP and spokesman Supachai Jaisamut said the special parliamentary committee on national reconciliation should be allowed to complete its work and come up with a reconciliation road map before the charter change process goes ahead.

Mr Sathit said the plan to set up a CDA was only meant to legitimise the government's plans to amend the charter and to deflect opposition to the move.

Democrat leader Abhisit Vejjajiva yesterday urged the public to check whether the Pheu Thai Party would set qualifications for CDA members which allowed its MPs and allies to sit on the CDA.

Political unrest would result if the government's real motives were removing Section 309 of the constitution, which insulates the 2006 coup makers from prosecution and legitimises their actions.

Thai-ASEAN News Network



PM Pushes for Constitution Amendment

UPDATE : 22 December 2011

The prime minister insists the constitution amendment will take place if the majority of voters support the move.

Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra claimed yesterday that the Pheu Thai Party has not yet discussed the constitution amendment during its party meetings.

Earlier, there was a rumor that her party stressed the importance of the constitution amendment.


However, Yingluck did point out that the amendment might take place early next year.

She added that the new Reconciliation Commission for Constitution Reform must carefully consider which charter should be amended.

Nevertheless, she pledged that any amendments must be supported by the majority of the people.

Yingluck fled the media immediately when she was asked whether the Pheu Thai Party has reached a decision on whether to amend Section 112 of the Criminal Procedure Code regarding the Lese Majesty act.

Meanwhile, the Opposition Party Leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said the government should not push for the amnesty decree for a second time, as it would drag the country back into a political deadlock.

Abhisit said a new Reconciliation Commission for Constitution Reform must be comprised of appropriate members.

Bangkok Post : Charter haste a path to peril

EDITORIAL

Charter haste a path to peril

• Published: 22/12/2011 at 12:00 AM
• Newspaper section: News

There is little doubt that the majority of Thais want to see peace and reconciliation return to this Land of Smiles. They want to pursue a normal life and look forward to a prosperous future without fear or concern of the kind of political violence that has beset the country for the past several years since before the September 2006 coup that ousted the Thaksin administration.

The bloody crackdown on red shirt protesters which left 92 people dead, including some members of the security forces, and the burning of Bangkok in May last year is just one example of the kind of political violence that peace-loving Thais do not want repeated.

But in a political atmosphere that is thickly sullied by mutual hatred and deep mistrust between the opposing colour-coded political factions and with many self-serving politicians who have yet to learn a lesson from last year's tragedy, there is a lot of uncertainty that peace and reconciliation can be achieved at all.

The ruling Pheu Thai Party which has been singing the reconciliation song since the pre-election days appears determined to achieve the goal next year through legislation. In short, the party believes amending the 2007 constitution, which it says is the legacy of the 2006 coup and the source of all political ills, will pave the way for reconciliation.

In his latest phone interview with this paper, fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra predicted reconciliation would figure prominently in the local political picture next year, but also warned that peace efforts could be stifled by some elements whom he called "merchants of conflict". In his opinion, the attempt to rewrite the charter, reconciliation efforts as well as restitution of political victims must be undertaken in parallel to achieve results quickly.

Pheu Thai's legal team has made clear which clauses of the charter that it wants to amend. These include Section 291 to pave the way for the creation of a charter-drafting panel; Section 237 about the dissolution of parties and banishment from politics of party executives as a result of party dissolution; and Section 309 which seeks to grant amnesty to all coup makers for the past and future. As for reconciliation, the party envisages a law to grant a blanket amnesty to all criminal offenders, including red and yellow shirts involved in violent protests as well as security forces involved in the crackdown of protesters.

Well-intended as it may seem, Pheu Thai's charter change and reconciliation moves have been viewed with suspicion by its opponents, who say the hidden objective of all these efforts is to bring Thaksin home as a free man without having to serve the two-year jail term imposed upon him by the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions on the Ratchadaphisek land deal. Protests against the efforts, the charter change for instance, are expected and the protesters should not be branded "merchants of conflict" simply because they harbour different opinions.

The most asked question is why the need and the rush to amend the constitution which has been in place just four years. The party owes the public a clarification about the reason or reasons for the amendments and which parts of the charter are to be changed. But the toughest question is "Will all these efforts lead to peace and reconciliation?" Or, they will lead to more conflicts?

At best, all these efforts only scratch the surface of the problem of political conflict. The Truth for Reconciliation Commission, in its latest interim report to the government, blamed the root cause of conflicts to distortions of the law by the Constitution Court in Thaksin's hidden assets case back in 2004 _ two years before the 2006 coup which Pheu Thai claimed to be the real reason for the country's unprecedented political divide.