Thread: Thailand 'admits cluster bombs used against Cambodia'

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Originally Posted by SteveCM

A source in the army said the weapon in question could be the Caesar self-propelled howitzer, whose artillery burst into bomblets.

Caesar 155mm Self-Propelled Artillery System - Army Technology



Munitions

Caesar is capable of using a wide range of ammunition for deployment against protected and unprotected targets, to create counter-mobility obstacles to block the manoeuvres of enemy armoured forces and to obscure or illuminate an area.

Caesar can fire conventional high-explosive (HE) or new-generation cargo rounds, which provide increased accuracy and terminal effectiveness.

The Ogre shell, which is in series production for the French Army, is an anti-tank and fragmentation bomblet dispensing round for use against relatively unprotected area targets such as command posts, artillery batteries, light armoured vehicles or logistic sites.

Ogre dispenses 63 bomblets, each fitted with a self-destruct mechanism. The bomblets are capable of penetrating more than 90mm of armour. A salvo of six Ogre shells releases 378 bomblets to saturate an area of 3ha at a range of 35km.

Bonus rounds with smart submunitions can be launched against tanks and other types of medium and heavy armoured vehicles. Bonus rounds have been developed by Nexter Ammunition and Intertechnique of France, and Bofors of Sweden.

The Bonus round carries two smart anti-tank submunitions to a range of 34km. A top-attack flight profile delivers the explosively formed penetrator (EFP) warhead to the roof of the tank which is generally more vulnerable than the heavily armour-protected sides and front.

Base bleed shells provide a considerably increased range by filling the vacuum and reducing the turbulence behind the projectile without any loss of accuracy.

The maximum ranges are up to 42km for extended range full bore – base bleed (ERFB-BB) rounds.

Originally Posted by SteveCM

"We may have some weapons with similar features to cluster bombs but they do not work like cluster bombs. They are not cluster bombs," Col Thanathip said

Presumably Col Thanathip is a keen Monty Python fan.....

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Prawit: We didn’t deploy them

Prawit: We didn’t deploy them -
..and my grandparents aren't Chinese. And in fact we never fired a shot - actually we aren't even fighting on the border.

snip

The army has suspended the use of M198 shells and the French-made Caesar self-propelled howitzer since late February after Cambodian soldiers complained to the United Nations that Thai troops had used cluster bombs during clashes on Feb 4-6, said an army source.

snipThe Cluster Munition Coalition (CMC) last week said the Thai ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva confirmed Thailand's use of 155mm Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munition (DPICM) cluster munitions at a meeting on Tuesday.

But Sihasak Phuangketkeow later denied that he said the Thai army used cluster munitions during the Thai-Cambodian border skirmish.

Mr Sihasak claimed he said the Thai army had actually used 155mm DPICMs, which it did not classify as cluster munitions.

He said the CMC misunderstood Thailand and was trying to pressure the country to accede to the Convention of Cluster Munitions.

Bangkok Post : Army insists cluster bombs were not used

Heng Rattana, director general of the Cambodian Mine Action Centre, said DPICM were “clearly” part of the cluster munitions ban.

Panitan said the military had used DPICM in retaliation for alleged Cambodian BM-21 rocket fire that hit Thai civilians, though he was not sure how many civilian casualties had occurred.

Heng Rattana said BM-21 were “conventional weapons”.

Thailand quibbles over cluster bomb definition | National news | The Phnom Penh Post - Cambodia's Newspaper of Record

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Prawit: We didn’t deploy them - anyway, I've a got a few second hand cars for sale. Low mileage, driven by very old ladies. You wanna buy?

Prawit: We didn’t deploy them -
..and my grandparents aren't Chinese. And in fact we never fired a shot - actually we aren't even fighting on the border.

Trust him with my life.

^
It's Pigsy

Where's Monkey, Sandy and Tripitaka ?

So it turns out that Thailand didn't use cluster munitions after all, the spokesman was misquoted and then the usual suspects chimed in with opinions about a subject they are ignorant to. A few people here with egg on their faces it would seem.

Originally Posted by Sabai Prai

So it turns out that Thailand didn't use cluster munitions after all

what parallel universe do you reside in ?

Originally Posted by Sabai Prai

A few people here with egg on their faces it would seem.

looked in a mirror lately ?

^
Not necessarily a parallel universe.....

In Aldous Huxley's dystopian novel Brave New World, Soma is a popular dream-inducing, hallucinogenic drug. It provides an easy escape from the hassles of daily life and is employed by the government as a method of control through pleasure.

Soma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Best not to drink the water here, I think.....

Originally Posted by SteveCM

^
Not necessarily a parallel universe.....

In Aldous Huxley's dystopian novel Brave New World, Soma is a popular dream-inducing, hallucinogenic drug. It provides an easy escape from the hassles of daily life and is employed by the government as a method of control through pleasure.

Soma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Best not to drink the water here, I think.....

Or if Soma was on it, better to drink a lot...

Originally Posted by SteveCM

^
Not necessarily a parallel universe.....

In Aldous Huxley's dystopian novel Brave New World, Soma is a popular dream-inducing, hallucinogenic drug. It provides an easy escape from the hassles of daily life and is employed by the government as a method of control through pleasure.

Soma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Best not to drink the water here, I think.....

Philip K Dick has something to say on the issue. Oh I love his books

Originally Posted by Mr R Sole

Originally Posted by SteveCM

- might not be fat.

but it's likely ain't it...wonder if he owns a Porsche or a Merc...maybe a Lo-so nad only has a BMW or worst a Twatota Forskiner...Poor 'Child'

Get orf our Forum..


No, you not Sabai!!!!

Will yer look at that? Sure if it doesn't remind me of Father Eamonn at the orphanage.....

[Great pic!]

Originally Posted by Sabai Prai

So it turns out that Thailand didn't use cluster munitions after all, the spokesman was misquoted and then the usual suspects chimed in with opinions about a subject they are ignorant to. A few people here with egg on their faces it would seem.

Wiki seems to emphatically disagree-

Cluster munitions, cluster bombs or sub-munitions are air-dropped or ground-launched explosive weapons that eject smaller munitions: a cluster of bomblets.
Cluster bomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^^
Not to worry, sab...... I hear that, following his recent entry into publishing, Suthep is commissioning a Thai version of Wikipedia. Searches within Thailand will automatically default to it so that citizens can avoid all that nonsensical foreign stuff. Seems he got the idea from the Chinese approach to Google.....

Originally Posted by Sabai Prai

So it turns out that Thailand didn't use cluster munitions after all, the spokesman was misquoted and then the usual suspects chimed in with opinions about a subject they are ignorant to. A few people here with egg on their faces it would seem.

Is English your native language?

Then fuck right off.

If it's not, you're excused, you might be confused and need more education.

But you're still a fuckwit.

Laos’ cluster bomb concern
Uong Ratana
Monday, 11 April 2011


The remains of a 155-milimetre shell which landed in Svay Chrum village during the Thai-Cambodian border clash on February 6.

Foreign Minister of Laos Thongloun Sisoulith has said the use of cluster bombs during February’s deadly clashes between Thailand and Cambodia was a “serious concern”, calling them “horrific weapons”.

During the border fighting around Preah Vihear , Thailand used 155-milimetre Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munition: large shells launched from the ground that split open and release dozens of smaller bomblets across a wide area.

While the United Kingdom-based Cluster Munition Coalition says the weapons are internationally recognised as cluster bombs and banned under the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions, Thailand last week claimed they were not.

Thongloun Sisoulith, the Laotian Foreign Minister, urged all countries to sign and adhere to the 2008 convention banning the use of cluster bombs in a statement released on Friday by the CMC.

“It is of serious concern to learn of the recent use [of cluster munitions], and in particular on South East Asian soil, already so heavily impacted by these horrific weapons,” said Thongloun, who hosted an international meeting of state parties last year in support of the 2008 treaty. The Thai Foreign Ministry also issued a statement on Friday, reiterating its claim that it does not see DPICM as a cluster bomb.

Spokesman Thani Thongphakdi said in the statement that the Thai ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva, who the CMC said confirmed the use of cluster bombs during a meeting, had been “misrepresented”. He also claimed that the Thai military used DPICM to retaliate for Cambodian rocket fire.

“Thai troops had exercised maximum restraint, on the basis of necessity, proportionality, and in strict compliance with the military code of conduct and rules of engagement, taking the utmost caution to avoid civilians,” Thani said.

Neither Cambodia nor Thailand has signed the 2008 convention, which has been signed by 108 states and ratified by 56.

The treaty prohibits the use, transfer and stockpile of the deadly weapons because of the long-term threat they leave to civilians.

In the midst of the fighting at the border, two policemen died and another eight were injured on February 6 when an unexploded submunition detonated in the hands of a policeman in Preah Vihear province’s Svay Chrum village, police said after the incident.

phnompenhpost.com

Originally Posted by Sabai Prai

So it turns out that Thailand didn't use cluster munitions after all, the spokesman was misquoted and then the usual suspects chimed in with opinions about a subject they are ignorant to. A few people here with egg on their faces it would seem.

Is this chap a chickenhead? Or is it a case of clumsily expressed irony?

The jury hasn't returned yet - but signs are that at least a majority lean towards the first verdict. Still, it's far from being the only example of bizarre "thinking" here on TD these days. Something in the water, maybe?

Norway Condemns Use of Cluster Bombs
12 April 2011


“Norway condemns all use of cluster munitions. These weapons kill and maim civilians and have unacceptable humanitarian consequences long after they are used,” said Mr Støre. “South East Asia is a region that is already badly affected, and the incident on the border between Cambodia and Thailand demonstrates clearly why this weapon is now prohibited.

It has been reported that the Thai authorities have used cluster munitions in Cambodia. Norwegian Minister of Foreign Affairs Jonas Gahr Støre commented: “If these reports are true, this is a very serious matter.”

According to reports, Thailand used cluster munitions in February this year in connection with a border conflict with Cambodia. Norwegian People’s Aid, which works in both Thailand and Cambodia, recently visited the area around the disputed Preah Vihear temple. The NGO has now reported that cluster munitions of the type M42/M46 and M85 have been found. Several people are believed to have been killed or injured in the conflict, and many fled from the area. Now that people are returning to their villages, the unexploded ordnance puts them at serious risk.

“Norway condemns all use of cluster munitions. These weapons kill and maim civilians and have unacceptable humanitarian consequences long after they are used,” said Mr Støre. “South East Asia is a region that is already badly affected, and the incident on the border between Cambodia and Thailand demonstrates clearly why this weapon is now prohibited.
Cluster munitions are area weapons that do not distinguish between military and civilian targets, and they cause great suffering among civilians both during and long after conflicts.

“The report, which was drawn up by the Cluster Munition Coalition and Norwegian People’s Aid, shows how important it was to establish the Convention on Cluster Munitions, which bans the use of these weapons. Continued efforts are needed to persuade even more countries to join. I urge both Thailand and Cambodia to become parties to the convention as soon as possible and to cooperate on preventing more people from being killed or injured by these weapons,” said Mr Støre.

Together with various humanitarian organisations and the UN, Norway contributes to the clearance of unexploded ordnance and support for victims of cluster munitions, land mines and other explosives all over the world.

Original news source: Cluster Munition Coalition - News - Norway condemns use of cluster munitions

scandasia.com

Originally Posted by Mid

While the United Kingdom-based Cluster Munition Coalition says the weapons are internationally recognised as cluster bombs and banned under the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions, Thailand last week claimed they were not.

Well isn't that just totally Thailand.....No it isn't...Oh yes it is..


BOOM BOOM!!!!

Originally Posted by Mid

Norway Condemns Use of Cluster Bombs
12 April 2011


“Norway condemns all use of cluster munitions. These weapons kill and maim civilians and have unacceptable humanitarian consequences long after they are used,” said Mr Støre."

Well - I guess that means Prayuth and Abhisit are scratched from the Nobel Peace Prize list for this year. Not really fair for Abby though as I'm sure he would be the last to know..

From the blog world.....


UK Government condemns Thai use of cluster munitions | Asian Correspondent

By Andrew Spooner
Apr 13, 2011 6:28AM UTC


Last week the highly respected Cluster Munitions Collective announced that they now had sufficient evidence to prove that the Thai Army used cluster munitions against Cambodia during an exchange of fire in February 2011.

The CMC concluded that:

“This is the first use of cluster munitions anywhere in the world since the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions entered into force and became binding international law. Thailand has been a leader in the global ban on antipersonnel mines, and it is unconscionable that it used banned weapons that indiscriminately kill and injure civilians in a similar manner.”

Pic: Stéphane De Greef, Landmine and Cluster Munition Monitor.


Since then there have been several arguments, largely put forward by the PM Abhisit-led Thai government and their supporters, discussing the semantics of whether the munitions used could be defined as cluster as not. This can be quite simply dismissed as a deliberate obfuscation.

In the last few days I spoke to an ex-forces explosives expert in Cambodia who has worked for years with the Cambodian mine and cluster munitions clearing organisation, CMAC, and this contact confirmed, unequivocally, that the devices used by the Thai Army were certainly cluster munitions. They also stated that more reports and photographs regarding these munitions will be emerging in the next few days.

And now, with this story circulating through the global press, international pressure is ratcheting up on the Thai regime. Yesterday, hot on the heels of the Norwegian government’s condemnation, the UK government’s Foreign and Commonwealth Office released this statement condemning the use of cluster munitions and making it clear concerns have been raised with the Thai government.

“We are aware of the recent allegations of the use of cluster munitions by the Thai army and have raised this with the Thai authorities. That cluster munitions may have been used is of serious concern to the UK. We condemn in the strongest terms the use of cluster munitions that causes unacceptable harm to the civilian population.”

Thankfully, the evidence for this example of the Thai Army’s flagrant disregard for the safety of civilians is now beyond their control. It seems that internationalising of Thailand’s domestic problems could have far-reaching and damaging consequences for both PM Abhisit and the Thai Army.