The Thailand expat forum for Travel, Lifestyle and Fun.

kmart

There is a systematic failure to look after anything in Thailand.. Anything given and not earned is never appreciated or respected.

Mr R Sole

^ here here KMART, I also helped work on coral restoration projects and protecting endangered wildlife being exploited. used to make money from tourists!!! (like they don't know better)

Basically Thai's have killed most of the coral reefs on the Gulf of Thailand through over fishing destruction of coral and mangrove forests..designed by nature to support nearly all species that live in or near the sea...including us..

I will allow some global warming arguments for the death of some coral reefs in 1997-8 but generally they have been poisoned and destroyed through greed and stupidity...

Destroying their wildlife...for us tourists to have our photo taken with a baby gibbon in this wonderful land costs around 200-250 bht on the 'paradise' isle of Koh Samui...this pales in comparison of the cost the gibbon family has had to pay..on average 8 gibbons will die trying to protect it 's family from these horrendous kidnappers...and this is just some of the wildlife paraded around the island for 'YOUR' pleasure...

Sadly a lot of tourists I spoke to who came in contact with these sad creatures were completely apathetic...and thought nothing was really that BAD!!! I wanted to tie them up and parade them around asking for money...Actually I've got a great new idea...im off watch out....sorry thinking aloud.

Eventually the Special police came down from Bangkok to do a raid thanks to us on Samui who are concerned and can't stand seeing it anymore...Prossie's OK, rare and endangered animals...Oi NO!!!!!
...

And with watching Her Majesty on her birthday speech last year, nearly crying asking Thai's to look after the forests and to stop cutting them down for the benefit of Thai's and humanity....what more can you ask for?????

Waste of breath your Majesty??..or talking to the wrong race of people...now there are many Thai's that fully believe in looking after the environment..just none of them are in power..and if they were they'ed disappear quickly I'm sure.

So KMART sadly I believe that your assumptions and observations are very true indeed...
So why should people matter???????

andyirish57

Aint that the truth.
The will fcuk you every chance they get.
The only thing that they are interested in is your hard earned.
Vietnam will be the next place for Farang to settle in ,you can own property there unlike Thailand.

terry57

Matey, The Vietnamese would steal the hairs out of ones arsehole if you stand still long enough.

Good luck, just make sure you keep moving.

Dug

^ Got to agree with that, they make the Thais look like do gooders.

Thetyim

Are you forgetting that on Phuket tourists were issued with a free whistle to ensure their safety.

Mr R Sole

^ Free whistles I feel safer already....can just see it now...your getting jacked (I believe is the term) by a couple of homies...and this is how it goes

"Oi..oi tang tang ...money faLang...now..or you die" "hold on a minute chaps....Phwwweeeeeeee...officers...help...I'm being robbed...." "Oi faLang...where you get whistle????...that mine from station...DOH!!!!!..." pop pop pop goes the glock...

And that's just how it went down....

where's the somtam shop.....arrrrrgggggghhhhhhh

wonderboy

Two years ago on Xmas I was staying on the beach in Koh Phi phi. An Italian place. I met an American man , age around 62. He had been there 6 months, Michael was his name, we hung out a bit. He told me he was an economist and had been studying world economy. He told me that when I got back to Amercia I should sell everything I woned. My House, My stocks, everything. he said the whole economy was going to collapse. He said don't take his word, he was going to email me articles to read so I could make a deicision on my own. I stayed until Dec 28th and When I got back home two days later I waited a week for his emails but they never came. I called the bungalow and asked the owner where is Michael. He said he died on New Years Eve. Walking home from a bar he stopped to take a piss and fell down a cliff. I tried to follow up on it but the news articles stopped coming very quickly. It sounded very mysterious to me. I think something is going on in Thailand. Not sure what but something smells fishy. if anyone new Michael or has any information about him,please reply. I believe he was from San fransisco, had gray hair with a pony tail.

guyinthailand

Was there a post on teakdoor regarding number 4 below, another Norwegian woman who died at the same guesthouse in April? If not, does anyone have information on this death?

“1. The Norwegian woman, of the OP (Original Post?) that died, is Julie Michelle Bergheim.

2. The Norwegian woman, that was Julie's companion and got ill but survived, identified as "Venninnen"?

3. The American woman, that died at the same guesthouse, is Jill Sheree St. Onge.

4. There was another Norwegian woman, at the same guesthouse that died in April, is unnamed. Her autopsy is not ready.”

Below from Jot around the world Posted by Jotman

“The most reliable source of insight we have into what may have happened is Ryan, quoted (elsewhere). He wrote: "I found out later that there is a water treatment plant right behind the guesthouse. I feel that Jill was poisoned by a chemical from that plant."


“Based on the information about the water treatment plant and the symptoms reported by Ryan, it seems to me that the most likely cause of death was chlorine gas poisoning. One of the chlorine storage tanks near the water treatment facility may have sprung a leak. As this report out of New York indicates, even a small leak of chlorine gas container calls for an evacuation:
“If a water treatment plant is, indeed, located near the hotel where the tourists died, then a chlorine storage container may have ruptured. The classic symptoms of chlorine gas poisoning include vomiting. Based on what Ryan has told us, a chlorine gas leak must be strongly suspected.”


Causes


* Chlorine gas is one of the most common single, irritant, inhalation exposures, occupationally and environmentally. Possible sources of exposure are as follows: Industrial bleaching operations Sewage treatment Household accidents involving the inappropriate mixing of hypochlorite cleaning solutions with acidic agents Transportation releases Swimming pool chlorination tablet accidents Storage tank failure Chemical warfare


Clinical History
Cough (52-80%) Shortness of breath (20-51%) Chest pain (33%) Burning sensation in the throat and substernal area (14%) Nausea or vomiting (8%) Ocular and nasal irritation (4-6%) Choking Muscle weakness Dizziness Abdominal discomfort Headachel

* Decreased breath sounds * Tachypnea * Tachycardia * Wheezing * Nasal flaring * Intercostal and subcostal retractions * Cyanosis * Rhinorrhea * Lacrimation * Hoarseness of the voice or stridor * Rales (acute respiratory distress syndrome [ARDS]/noncardiogenic pulmonary edema) * Crepitus (associated with pneumomediastinum)

MustavaMond

The water treatment plant used natural plant filtering , not chemicals.

The first unexplained death was on Phi Phi April 1 A Norwegian man,
Eric Liuhagnen , 48

Here is a list of deaths in the Krabi/Phuket region since April 1
(Not including the young German man found on Khao Lak beach beaten to death as a companion is being charged with that crime.)

1) -April 1st ; Phi Phi, BUT NOT at Laleena guest house as was reported earlier. Norwegian man Eric Liuhagnen , 48 . The cause has yet to be determined but reported extreme diarrhea. ( Different symptom from later deaths. )

2) -May 1st ; An un- ID'd male foreigner body found in the ocean off Phi Phi .
( Has tattoo of, "Mother" within heart.) Cause of death unknown, was wearing green pants.

3) - May 2nd, Phi Phi, female Jill St. Onge, 27

4) and May 3, Norwegian female Julie Michelle Bergheim, 23, extreme vomiting.

Both died in hospital within 12 hours of symptom onset and were staying in adjacent rooms at Lalaena Guesthouse .

(Two illnessses- recovered, companions of above deceased, male Ryan Kells, 26 and female Karina Refsth, 20. Report extreme vomiting and chemical odor in adjoining rooms at Laleena guesthouse , Phi Phi . )

5) - May 6; A Swiss female , Edis Jungen, 40 was found deceased on the beach in Krabi, ( Krabi is province Phi Phi island is in,) apparently strangled.
She has been agitated and claimed she was in danger before checking out of hotel, found next morning
in shallow water early Thursday by a villager in Ao Nang bay.


6) May 14 Phuket; German man , Ernst Hermannweid, extreme vomiting.
Died en route to hospital

7) May 21 Caucasian tattooed man found washed up on Nai Harn Beach, Phuket. Dead several days . ( Nai Harn is approx 30 kilometers west of Phi Phi )


An article printed in US has some new info, that may point to in my view, since rooms were air conditioned, fumes from the sewer ( " sewage smell..") may have accumulated in the rooms. Severe vomiting ensued and caused irritation of the stomache lining as was reported in Norway press account of PRELIMNARY autopsy of Bergheim. This is the report that had the reference to traces of cyanide that was then recanted by Thai police as a mistake. The Norwegian report stands by its account.

From the home town of St. Onge's fiancee, Ryan Kells who was also ill but recovered;

Los Altos Town Crier - LA family probes mystery tourist death on Phi Phi

>>>>>>>

"......
Adding furor to the tragedy was the lack of responsiveness from authorities, according to Kells’ family members.
“Our objective is to make sure an investigation is thoroughly undertaken,” said Kells’ father, John. John and his wife, Beby, of Los Altos flew to Bangkok to help their son cope with the ordeal. Kells, 30, a Los Altos High School graduate, is now back in Los Altos with his family.
“Assumptions were made very quickly,” John said.
Authorities dismissed the guesthouse’s air-conditioning system despite the fact that another female tourist took ill in the only other air-conditioned room where they were staying.
“We want to be very careful not to speculate,” John said, but both he and Kells remain suspicious that the air conditioning carried a toxic gas. The engaged couple had noticed a strong odor typical of sewage. In his blog, Kells speculated he survived because he was in the room a much shorter time.
A CNN report last week said authorities ruled out a nearby water treatment plant as a possible cause.
Authorities are awaiting test results of blood and tissue samples and St. Onge’s autopsy results – still weeks away – to determine the cause of death....."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Phuket Wan is reporting a team of investigators showed up recently:

Phi Phi Riddle: Fresh Check at Laleena Guesthouse - Phuket Wan

>>>>>>>

Phi Phi Riddle: Fresh Check at Laleena Guesthouse

By Chutima Sidasathian and Alan Morison
Saturday, May 23, 2009
"A TEAM of investigators went to the Laleena Guesthouse on Phi Phi on Friday to probe the cause of the mysterious deaths of two women tourists on the holiday island.

The owner of the Laleena, Rat Chuped, said the team of about eight officers turned up without warning. She thought they were from the provincial Public Health office.

They took samples from ground-floor Rooms 4 and 5 at the guesthouse....."

>>>>>>>>>>

__________________



Profiteering From War and Disease, Corporate Owned "News" Media Deliberately Dis-Informs in Order to Further Its Own Agenda- PROFIT

guyinthailand

Thanks, MustavaMond, for your work on compiling all these important facts and timelines. Yes, you’re right: chlorine doesn’t sound like the culprit especially since chlorine has a distinctive odor. The odor they have mentioned as being ‘sewage like’ is really noteworthy.


Was/is there any cassava cultivation or processing going on nearby? My negative, sickening experience of breathing cyanide dust from the cassava production plants near my Thai village lead me to learn that the water treatment plants for cassava production plants can generate tremendous amounts of cyanide, so much that all fish will die if said water is discharged into a fish pond, for example, but I was only told this by locals and I would like more scientific backing on this. And the fact that one of the victims ‘turned really blue’ maybe doesn’t sound like cyanide poisoning as cyanide poisoning will turn the skin a pinkish-red (though an MD may say that turning blue—cyanosis—often happens at time of death, even if from cyanide). And the traces of cyanide supposedly found in her body could be explained by her having eaten cassava-based noodles, I suppose.“Even healthy individuals have a small amount of cyanide in their bodies” from HYDROGEN CYANIDE AND CYANIDES: HUMAN HEALTH ASPECTSHydrogen Cyanide and Cyanides: Human Health Aspects (Cicads 61, 2004)
And for detailed look at various aspects of cyanide poisoning The Emergency Response Safety and Health Database: Systemic Agent: SODIUM CYANIDE

Which seems to indicate that ingesting cyanide would burn the stomach but that breathing it would not. Yet breathing Freon could burn the stomach. One of the victims stomach lining seemed to be burned.

Cassava production isn’t the only possible source for cyanide. “Sodium cyanide is used commercially for fumigation, electroplating, extracting gold and silver from ores, and chemical manufacturing” · Vapors may collect and stay in confined areas (e.g., sewers, basements, and tanks). · Hazardous concentrations may develop quickly in enclosed, poorly-ventilated, or low-lying areas. Keep out of these areas. Stay upwind.”

Could the AC units have been leaking a refrigerant (Freon)? Everyone knows how shoddy and dangerous the electrical wiring can be in Thailand. Why should it be any different for the care and upkeep of air conditioning units? The question is: would a leaking AC be enough in a closed room to kill them? Carbon tetrachloride is actually a precursor to some refrigerants and is also a cleaning agent. Could the room have been cleaned with too much carbon tetrachloride based cleaning solution? I made an earlier post describing the wonderful Thai penchant for putting dozens of mothballs in the men’s urinals, and how the Thais spray other poisons just about everywhere just about all the time. Thais aren’t happy if they aren’t 1) lighting fires, and 2) spraying poisons—so it is possible the guest house was a vortex for multiple poisons: from the AC, from the water treatment plant, and from cleaning solutions.

WikiAnswers - What causes freon poisoning How would you know if you're at risk
contains a discourse on poisoning by Freon, a common refrigerant, that is toxic.
“Freon is a refrigerant gas that is toxic and, if inhaled or ingested, can cause a wide variety of physiological symptoms both immediately and in the long term.
The most common poisoning occurs when people intentionally sniff freon. This is extremely dangerous and can lead to long-term brain damage and sudden death.
Symptoms

• Lungs
  • Difficulty in Breathing (from inhalation)
  • Swelling of the Throat (which may also cause respiratory distress)
• Eyes, ears, nose, and throat
  • Severe pain in the throat
  • Severe pain or burning in the nose, eyes, ears, lips, or tongue
  • Loss of vision
• Gastrointestinal
  • Severe abdominal pain
  • Vomiting
  • Burns of the oesophagus (food pipe)
  • Vomiting blood
  • Blood in the stool
• Heart and blood vessels
  • Palpitations and irregular heart-beat
  • Ventricular fibrillation and death (sudden sniffing death syndrome)
  • Collapse
• Nervous System
• ** Dizziness
  • Headache
  • Confusion
  • Loss of co-ordination (do not drive if affected!)
  • Unconsciousness
• Skin
  • Irritation
  • Frostbite
  • Burns
  • Necrosis (holes) in the skin or underlying tissues

Seek immediate emergency medical care. Most of the symptoms listed result from breathing in (inhaling) the substance.
Move the person to fresh air. Be careful to avoid being overcome with the fumes while helping someone else especially in confined spaces and if bending down to administer aid (see below).
Please note that Freon is more dense than air and will therefore tend to 'flow' downhill and accumulate at floor level, in depressions & hollows. This is particularly important with a patient that has collapsed as they may still be breathing in fumes at ground level. Concentrations in confined spaces may become high enough to poison 'observers' as well as 'participants'. “

And let’s not forget to mention carbon tetrachloride:

Carbon tetrachloride is most often found in the air as a colorless gas. It is not flammable and does not dissolve in water very easily. It was used in the production of refrigeration fluid and propellants for aerosol cans, as a pesticide, as a cleaning fluid and degreasing agent, in fire extinguishers, and in spot removers.
· · It is very stable in air (lifetime 30-100 years).
How do you get exposed?
* Breathing contaminated air near manufacturing plants or waste sites.
* Breathing workplace air when it is used.
* Drinking contaminated water near manufacturing plants and waste sites.
* Breathing contaminated air and skin contact with water while showering or cooking with contaminated water.
* Swimming or bathing in contaminated water.
* Contact with or ingesting contaminated soil at waste sites.

(P.S. Am I the only one who won’t drink those 5 baht milky-white plastic bottles of water? Sometimes, you get what you pay for and those water bottles don’t exactly inspire one with confidence.)

nidhogg

Phi Phi is a group of very small islands. I doubt very much there is any agriculture at all there, and certainly not cassava.

As a point to bear in mind, cassava comes in two varieties, the so called "sweet" and "bitter". The sweet is commonly used as a food crop in Thailand (and elsewhere), and contains very little cyanide.

Whatever killed those tourists, its very, very very unlikely to be cyanide poisoning from casava.

And, as a second point, if you really had been breathing "cyanide dust", you would be very unlikley to be posting now.

__________________
facilis est descensus Averni

terry57

Yep, that's a very good observation matey as the majority of punters are having a forking great time.

Some bastards continue to whine but they'd fok off home if they really thought the place was foked.

watterinja

If the freon was leaking, then they would have probably changed rooms...





... reason?
The aircon would have not been working properly...

dirtydog

erm, Ryans first story told how the air con killed her, would hardly call his wild bloggings as credible.

guyinthailand

Just for the record, I never said Ryan was credible. I was quoting someone else who said he was.

guyinthailand

guyinthailand

And, for the record, I never said he wasn't credible. He may indeed be very credible, and that the air conditioning as possible factor in the sickness needs to be ruled out in a careful way. Freon from a leaking AC has been known to poison people.

MustavaMond

Mr Kells has never stated he knows what killed Ms. St. Onge. He has written that he thought it was the air in the room from the smell and was surmising he wasn't as ill because he was leaving the premises. He also speculates if the water treatment plant could be involved. Hardly, " ..wild bloggings.."
SO he is guessing and states so plainly.

HIs bloggings are that of a man who has lost a loved one suddenly and is not getting too much cooperation from Thai authorities. Unfortunately his status as
" friend" of the deceased did him no favors as the US Embassy would not share information with him while he was still in the country.

I believe he is deserved of sympathy.

watterinja

Need to look for a serial poisoner who does it for kicks, methinks.