The Thailand expat forum for Travel, Lifestyle and Fun.

walrus

Symptoms of Cholera usually consist of very severe diarrhea which cause rapid dehydration which in severe untreated cases can lead to shock and death.

However, in these particular cases there has been no mention of any preceeding diarrhea, only stomach pain and vomiting.

There is another type of food poisoning (from the same family of bacteria that causes Cholera) which comes from uncooked shellfish but this is very rarely fatal.

Although there are Cholera outbreaks in Thailand from time to time it is not common ... here is a report citing Cholera outbreaks in Thailand during a 25 year period from 1982 to 2007.

Any sort of poisoning which causes severe vomiting or/and diarrhea can have very severe implications due to the loss of water from a persons body and if untreated can ultimately be fatal.

Butterfly

that's why we have nostrils,

as long as yours are not stuffed, you should be fine

Rigger

I believe you when you say this as I also believe that I was poisoned years ago on Phi phi iland by a guy that I think had the hots for my wife and needed farang out the way. If I hadden been as young and fit back then I think I could have been in real trouble.

The wife believes that these farangs have been murdered, so I guess it has made the Thai news as she new about it

__________________


Work to ride & ride to work.

guyinthailand

“When I went back to the room, Jill was vomiting. She still thought it might be the food. We lay together for about two more hours. That is when I started vomiting. I thought something was wrong. He (I?) went outside and found a cart and wheeled Jill to the hospital. On our way to the hospital she started turning really blue and moaning loudly. She died shortly after.”

In cyanide poisoning skin color goes pink from cyanide-hemoglobin complexes so the fact that she turned “really blue” is noteworthy and rules out cyanide even though she had cyanosis. And if the victims didn’t have diarrhea—as it seems they didn’t--that seems to rule out the super quick acting deadly cholera bacteria, which was proposed by one Thai ‘authority’.

Below I compiled information from a table in the Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy which has poisons which include in their symptoms both 1) vomiting and 2) cyanosis (skin turning blue), since these were the two main symptoms that we’ve heard about. Note that shock or cardiac arrest also can cause the skin to turn blue. And so can carbon monoxide which can also cause vomiting.

Poisons: Pesticides (organophosphates, available everywhere in Thailand by the truckload; examples: parathion and malathion). Note: “Worldwide organophosphates are the pesticides most commonly involved in human poisoning.” Symptoms: Nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramping, excessive salivation, increased pulmonary secretion, headache, rhinorrhea, blurred vision, miosis, slurred speech, mental confusion, difficulty breathing, frothing at the mouth, coma; absorption via skin, inhalation, or ingestion. Plus another website includes muscle fasciculations, convulsions, cyanosis, dyspnea, shock, cardiac arrhythmias.

Poisons: Acetanilid, Aniline dyes and oil, Chloroaniline, Phenacetin (acetophenetidin, phenylacetamide) Symptoms: Cyanosis due to formation of methemoglobin and sulfhemoglobin, dyspnea, weakness, vertigo, angina, rashes and urticaria, vomiting, delirium, depression, respiratory and circulatory failure. Poisons: Barium compounds (soluble), Barium acetate, Barium carbonate, Barium chloride, Barium hydroxide, Barium nitrate, Barium sulfide, Depilatories, Explosives, Fireworks, Rat poisons Symptoms: Vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhea, tremors, seizures, colic, hypertension, cardiac arrest, dyspnea and cyanosis, ventricular fibrillation, severe hypokalemia, skeletal muscle weakness

Poisons: Chlorates, Nitrates, Permanent wave, Neutralizers Symptoms: Vomiting, nausea, diarrhea, cyanosis (methemoglobin), toxic nephritis, shock, seizures, CNS depression, coma, jaundice

Poisons: Chlorine (see also Hypochlorites), Chlorinated lime, Chlorine water, Tear gas Symptoms: Ingestion: Irritation, corrosion of mouth and GI tract, possible ulceration or perforation, abdominal pain, tachycardia, prostration, circulatory, collapse Inhalation: Severe respiratory and ocular irritation, glottal spasm, cough, choking, vomiting, pulmonary edema, cyanosis

Poisons: Iron (overdose), Carbonyl iron (see Carbon monoxide), Ferric salts, Ferrous salts, Ferrous gluconate, Ferrous sulfate, Vitamins with iron (NOTE: Children’s chewables with iron are remarkably safe) Symptoms: Vomiting, upper abdominal pain, pallor, cyanosis, diarrhea, drowsiness, shock; possible toxicity if > 20 mg/kg of elemental iron is ingested

Poisons: Nitrites, Amyl nitrite, Butyl nitrite, Nitroglycerin, Potassium nitrite, Sodium nitrite Symptoms: Methemoglobinemia, cyanosis, anoxia, GI disturbance, vomiting, headache, dizziness, hypotension, respiratory failure, coma

Poisons: Nitrobenzene, Artificial bitter almond oil, Dinitrobenzene. Symptoms: Bitter almond odor (suggests cyanides), drowsiness, headache, vomiting, ataxia, nystagmus, brown urine, convulsive movements, delirium, cyanosis, coma, respiratory arrest

English Noodles

You should read the thread.

guyinthailand

Actually, if I had to guess I would say they died from organophosphate (pesticide) poisoning that wasn’t deliberate. But anyone who would rule out deliberate poisoning until all the evidence is in is, well, an idiot. If you had read my all my posts in the thread—instead of taking some comments out of context--you would see that the speculation on terrorism is just that: speculation. But the terrorism angle shouldn’t be ruled out (as my analysis shows) especially in the south of Thailand where the death toll—which Thailand somehow keeps out of the international limelight--climbs almost every day from terrorism.

tjyflhol

How many people have been killed on Koh Phi Phi because of terrorism in the last few years?

It's a wild speculation.

mrsquirrel

Unless they had been exposed for a long period that is very unlikely.

guyinthailand

(notice that when it says symptoms “include” that it does not mean all symptoms must be present. Also note that it is possible, or even likely, victims were exposed to more than one toxic chemical—after all, this is Thailand).

“Organophosphate Poisoning - symptoms and treatment

Different people have different symptoms of OP poisoning. Symptoms depend partly on how much OP they have been exposed to, whether they have had single massive exposure, or chronic sub-lethal exposure, whether it has been combined with other chemicals and OPs and how good their body is a coping with toxic chemicals.

Symptoms divide into the following categories:


Acute Organophosphate poisoning
This is the syndrome recognised by doctors and Poisons Units. Symptoms occur within 24 hours of exposure and include collapse, breathing problems, sweating, diarrhoea, vomiting, excessive salivation, heart dysrrhythmias, extreme anxiety etc. Treatment is with atropine. You have to have a large dose of OP to have this effect (eg. drink some of the dip!) and so this syndrome is rarely seen.

No obvious symptoms at all
A Government sponsored study at the Institute of Occupational Medicine of farmers who regularly handled OPs but who were complaining of no symptoms showed that they suffered from mild brain damage. Their ability to think clearly and problem solve was impaired.

Sheep dip 'flu (mild acute poisoning)
This is a 'flu-like illness which follows exposure to OPs. Sometimes the farmer just has a bit of a headache, feels unusually tired or finds he can't think clearly. This may just last a few hours to a few days and the sufferer recovers completely. Most sufferers do not realise that they have been poisoned and put any symptoms down to a hard day's work. It can occur after dipping, but some farmers will get symptoms after the slightest exposure, such as visiting markets and inhaling OP fumes from fleeces.”

Much more good information in this article which is found in full here:

Organophosphate Poisoning - symptoms and treatment | Dr Myhill

guyinthailand

Remember, this statement-- (Acute Organophosphate poisoning) is rarely seen"--is coming from a doctor in a western European country where there are rules, regulations and laws against indiscriminate pesticide use and there is also an educated public that knows you don't spray yourself with pesticide while gardening and you don't re-use pesticide containers for water containers, etc. So of course it is rarely seen there. But Thailand has thousands of acute poisoning cases show up at hospitals every year, and thousands more go unreported, as did the case of my wife's uncle who accidentally poisoned himself in the rice fields by letting the poison get all over him, breathe it, etc. He refused to go to the hospital even though, to me, he looked like he was about to die. And I have read--I think there are posts on Teakdoor about some of them--of many cases of both suicides and homicides committed in Thailand using pesticides.

pomeloseed

Two theories:

1. cyanide dumped in the cess pool (cyanide is used by unscrupulous fishermen, and there may be some on Phi Phi). drain cleaner containing hycrochloric acid (HCL) could also have been dumped in the drains, as it's used as a drain cleaner.
Hardly any shower drains in Thailand have P traps, and very few plumbing systems are vented properly. HCL was used as an accellerant for Cyanide in Nazi gas chambers. The combo makes for a quickly debilitating/killing gas. As far as I know, there is no forensic report of the condition of the victims' lungs.

2. Someone may have used a plastic container to store pesticide. One or more of those water bottles may have been reused. That would explain blistering reported in vicitms' stomachs.

Regarldless, we hear next to nothing about any real investigation, and don't know for sure whether on is going on. All indications are Thai authorities want this swept under the rug.

English Noodles

^He's a bar stool expert on Thailand.

Indeed.

Bones

^theorie 3. somebody poisoned them on purpose.

tuktukdriver

Has this story been succesfully swept under the rug by the Thai authorities?

Muadib

Give it time... In a few weeks the dust will settle and the only people still paying attention will be the families...

watterinja

Case in point - the nightclub that burned down on New Year's eve - where did that case disappear to?

This is the way Thailand operates.

Butterfly

disgraceful, but again Thais like Americans have a short attention span

phuketbound

^Yup!

--
On the same note, a German tourist dies in Phuket after severe vomiting.

Phuket: German, 57, dies in Phuket after severe vomiting

Could this be the same thing that Jill St. Onge died from?

Mr R Sole

What like??? touching his neck to see if he was breathing!!!! extensive as in how much cash he had on him at the time of his death and how much gold....and then how much was in his personal possesions after the police found him....'extensive'

Anything that the Thai's seem to deem damaging generally disappears very quickly over here...they really hate bad press..worse than most things...or so it seems.

I myself 6 yrs ago was poisoned by the local 'clean bottled drinking water' from Samui..a company called R.O Samui drinking water...I was horrendously sick for about 3-5days before seeking medical help then another 3-5 after that!!!...I kept and took the water along with me and the hospital stated that the water was full of cleaner!!!! I asked if I could have a copy of their report on the water and they denied me!!!! they supported the company...and said that it was likely just a single bottle as they had no other reports of water sickness...for those that have been to Samui hospitals are as plentiful as TOP CHAERON OPTICAL shops!!! "We care your life" international my arse!!! can't even put a sentence together correctly let alone my broken wrist, but that's another story...

Agast at this, I said that didn't make me feel any better and I wanted something done, like this being reported to the local authorities. This fell on extremely deaf ears.

So for these poor people that have lost their lives due to some mysterious bacteria..I'm afraid your probably very right in stating that the only people bringing this up in a few weeks is likely to be the relatives only...I'm very sad to say

I can mention so many deaths that have never been given a decent conclusion in the papers over my 6yrs in this country, it's almost unbelieveable..On this note we generally only hear about westerners....

What about the countless Thai's that lose their lives, their families would never push it this far or harang relevent authorities to find out what the hell happened to their loved ones???? probably because they aren't taught to question anyone above their standing- (I'm a teacher, I know they don't question anything)-....doctors, police etc...."that's just what happened" or what we can be arsed to find out anyway. There dead so just leave it at that, abismal attitude from the BIB and other scumbags with power...unless of course your rich, then it's yes Sir no Sir...Khun whatever....

What about the English couple that were murdered in front of a restaurant in Kanchanaburi many years back...That guy never served any time in the nick at all...everytime he was arrested he was released later by his mates after the press was gone!!!

Sad to say but to most We're just farang and there will be more flying in next week to take our place.... what a terrible mess.

I remember a French girl back in 2001-2 not sure which and she was killed and her body dumped by the roadside in the UK, it was on the BBC everynight for ages and also what was being done to find her killer...and the angle on the TV was how terrible a fact was that she was visiting the UK and travelling around our country...We actually seemed to care about her...tourist are an asset and should be treated as such...or you may just find that you ain't got anymore coming if you keep getting bad press.

Wake up and smell the Lao Kow Thailand before word gets out in home countries then maybe you will really have problems after the so called global crisis is over....there are many cheaper places to go now!!!! be warned I think is the message.

nidhogg

I have been thinking on this for a while now. I believe there is a systemic, and systematic failure in Thailand to protect foreigners. The pattaya fiasco and the airport fiasco were both failures on behalf of the Thai state (and its citizens) to show any consideration or protection for foreigners.

The examples you cite for foreigners murdered in thailand are also pertinent, and again, highlight the lack of protection for foreigners and their welfare. I do not expect that increase concern for foreigners would result in any drop in the murder rate, but it SHOULD be reflected in the administration of justice that is SEEN to be done.

All in all, sadly Thailand fails to protect the lives or the welfare of its foreign "guests" and it will (and should) pay a price for that failure.

__________________
facilis est descensus Averni