Thread: Indonesian police say 32 dead, 1 missing in Papua attacks

Originally Posted by Switch

You e been told once already. Your patronizing dismissals

Irony alert!

Originally Posted by Switch

You clearly have no rational debate to the points I have given you,

Irony alert!

Originally Posted by Switch

Fuckwit.

Irony alert!

Originally Posted by Switch

so you think that a self declared win is the answer.

Reading what's not there AGAIN!

Originally Posted by Switch

Really, you have such disdain for human life that you find it amusing

Another great example of the very odd conflation that occurrs in your mind. I laugh at your silliness and you read it as laughingly disdaining human life. Very odd.

Originally Posted by Switch

Feel ashamed of yourself for supporting the termination of life on a whim.

What is wrong with you? I said they're freedom fighters, which is not supporting termination of life on a whim. I have to laugh again because it was clear what I wrote, I've reminded and clarified what I wrote numerous times, yet you still maintain this absurd notion that calling them freedom fighters, giving them a label contrary to your incorrect "terrorist" label, is in some way saying I condone murder. . Very very odd behaviour.

Originally Posted by Switch

living in a realm higher than mine.

FTFY and your original unfixed version is contradicted by Ootais post above. He's got an opinion that you don't agree with. Please refrain from insulting him for having a different opinion, it would be very rude, unnecessary, and another example of your current irrational mind.

Originally Posted by ootai

As surprising as it seems in this case I tend to agree with Maanaam.

That's a bit of a backhanded compliment . Why is it surprising?

Originally Posted by Switch

...

In the case of France in WWII, war had been declared and the territorial rights of the French was not in dispute. A rather disingenuous comparison.

The resistance fighters were acting outside the law and murdering people.

Are you now saying that's fine sometimes, at other times not, relativising your own central argument?

Originally Posted by Maanaam

That's a bit of a backhanded compliment . Why is it surprising?

It is surprising because I rarely agree with your style, not necessarily what you are saying initially, but the way you continue to chew on the bone when someone interprets what you are saying differently to you. That is just semantics in my opinion but in this case I agree with your continuation of the argument.
If you just had your say and then left it at that I would probably agree with you more often. I just lose my belief when you labour on, seemingly to just prove you are right and your protagonist is wrong. No one is right or wrong they just have different opinions or perceptions

As for Switch's post about WW2 and the fact that war had been declared between France and Germany made the resistance fighters legal, I would argue that the Papuan freedom fighters have also declared war (back in 1963).

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Winning the mineral resources of the region would be the real reason for infrastructure.

Exactly.
As I stated earlier, exploitation of resources usually follows, along with destruction of the environment, culture & ethnicity.

Originally Posted by ootai

I just lose my belief when you labour on, seemingly to just prove you are right and your protagonist is wrong. No one is right or wrong they just have different opinions or perceptions

I appreciate your points. However, when I say "land dispute" and someone says I said "religious dispute", I really do feel the need to correct them. When I say "They're freedom fighters" and somebody responds with, "That means you're happy that civilians were murdered", I again feel the need to correct them. That they stubbornly persist with their error is not my fault.
But, I take your point and will leave him to have the last word, undoubtedly some insults and more irrational nonsense.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

That they stubbornly persist with their error is not my fault.

...folks on the internet can be so annoying...

Manny you really need to take a long hard look at yourself. I’m not the only one you have dismissed summarily for disagreeing with you, on this thread alone.
your writing was not clear at all. By labeling them freedom fighters, you give yourself permission to condone their actions.
You raised the religious issue by incorrectly comparing West Papua to Israel and Palestine. No matter, as religious extremism is not in issue here.

Despite being told not to edit another’s post in order to make yourself look better, you’ve done it again.

You claim I am in error. As ootai said, it’s an opinion, and once more you are in the wrong.

Despite your claims to polite interdiction, I notice no apology or proof forthcoming, to support your other erroneous claim that I am a Muslim hater?

You loose credibility when you cherry pick your debating points. Laughingg at unwarranted killing still marks you out as insane. Persisting with such amusement makes you look both callous and insane. I’m sure there’s a word for that, but I’m too polite to use it, even in your case.

Quit wriggling and apologise for your error, or prove your insidious claims to be true.

I dont like to get involved in a personal fight but some perspective is needed. It is stating the bleeding obvious to say no murder is justifiable.However, in saying that, the Indonesian TNI have been committing extra judicial killings of native Papuans for years with impunity. Indonesia does not even allow reporters on the island to be able to report what is happening there. The government have been systematically bringing in Indonesian moslems to a country they basically annexed, to take resources from the country. Most killings of Papuans are rarely investigated and there have been a number of killings of Papuan political activists where no one was held accountable. There is a lot of information from various groups including amnesty international, freely available. One only needs to see the evidence of atrocities including the murder of australian journalists from East Timor, now independant but originally annexed by Indonesia with the collusion of the Australian Govt at the time, to have some idea how the Indonesian military operate. The Papuans have no way to achieve justice. Demonstrators either disappear or are jailed. Unfortunately I cannot see what other way the Papuans have other than to accept the Indonesians governments plan to eventual Islamise Papua and turn the Papuans into a fractured minority with all their resources exploited. The Papuans do have a right to self determination and have gone down a path with no other options available to them whether we agree or not.

Originally Posted by Switch

Laughingg at unwarranted killing still marks you out as insane.

Ooooo, I can't resist responding to this preposterous accusation that you made, I corrected you, and you make again. Laughing at you is not laughing at unwarranted killing. That really is a fine example of your many spins and misconstruings of whatever I say.
Are you trolling, if so, I have been caught well and truly. If not, you are dense and your mind interprets what you see in very strange ways.
There's more to respond to, in a similar vein, but I'll just leave it. I can explain things to you every time you outrageously misconstrue words and sentences (and emojis ), but trying to get your brain cells to work in unison is like herding cats to a river.

Hugh Cow
Finally a post that says it how it is.
Well done.

Maanaam
In this instance you have my sympathy, but I'm afraid you won't win.

I often say to people who misinterpret what I say to them with this;
"You may be hearing me but you are not listening to what I am saying."

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Ooooo, I can't resist responding to this preposterous accusation that you made, I corrected you, and you make again. Laughing at you is not laughing at unwarranted killing. That really is a fine example of your many spins and misconstruings of whatever I say.
Are you trolling, if so, I have been caught well and truly. If not, you are dense and your mind interprets what you see in very strange ways.
There's more to respond to, in a similar vein, but I'll just leave it. I can explain things to you every time you outrageously misconstrue words and sentences (and emojis ), but trying to get your brain cells to work in unison is like herding cats to a river.

Don’t try to blame me because your posting style and language is ambiguous. Try writing in clear English if you don’t want to be misinterpreted.
You might claim that you were laughing at me now, but that is not what you actually posted numb nuts. If your language skills are not up to it, stop responding and put me on ignore. If nothing else it will demonstrate that you are ignorant as well as stupid. I hope that is quite clear for you fuckwit.
Still no apology. Noted.

Hugh
I agree that extra judicial killings are also wrong. Whatever the disagreement, killing each other solves nothing and invariably makes matters worse, as events have subsequently have proved.

Originally Posted by Switch

You might claim that you were laughing at me now, but that is not what you actually posted numb nuts.

Unfortunately for you, the post still stands and he's clearly laughing at your delusional, malicious stupidity:

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Whew!
Pointless to respond to the multiple examples of irrationality and fantasy. Other than....

No, I shouldn't laugh. I actually feel a bit sorry for you.

Originally Posted by Hugh Cow

Oh if everyone only thought like you Switch. There would not be 300 million guns in America. If all the military was disbanded Wars would be non existent or at least reduced to minor skirmishes between countries. Unfortunately Rwandan tribal genocides would still happen only worse, poverty would skyrocket with no military jobs and mass unemployment would ensue in support industries. Unfortunately a consequence of our current financial system and why it will never come to pass. Most laudable in theory though. I am anti war and anti military but I live in this world not the one I wish it to be.

Appreciate the input. I served in the military for over 22 years. It’s the most chastening experience and allows me the latitude to be a pacifist, and to believe that the MIC and its equivalents elsewhere can be dismantled one brick at a time.
You will notice the The ever belligerent stroller is self immolating as I write.

What's belligerent in pointing out your mistakes?

Ah, almost forgot: disagreement with Commander Chass is verboten!

What’s up stroll can’t send more red repo until you spread some love around?

Keep bashing those buttons aggressively. lol

Indonesia: Papuan Leaders Urge Rights Commission to Investigate Killings

Political leaders in Indonesia’s troubled Papua province urged the National Human Rights Commission on Monday to send a team to investigate violence in Nduga regency that killed about two dozen people this month.


The heads of the Papuan Representatives Council (DPR Papua) and Papuan People’s Assembly (MRP) made the calls after security forces allegedly killed four civilians during an anti-insurgency operation last week that followed the slayings of 19 construction workers and a soldier by separatist rebels.


“We ask the National Human Rights Commission to conduct a thorough investigation. They must investigate not only this December incident, but also what happened last July,” Yunus Wonda, chairman of the council, told BenarNews.


The Indonesian military and police had deployed helicopters in Nduga in July after suspected separatist rebels reportedly killed three civilians during an attack on security personnel being deployed to safeguard a local election.


DPR Papua will set up a special committee to conduct an inquiry into what happened, Yunus said.


“We currently cannot get there because the area is still closed,” he said.


Timotius Murib, chairman of the people’s assembly, said the MRP has formed a committee to investigate the Dec. 2 and 3 attacks by separatist rebels that left the construction workers and a soldier dead.


The West Papuan National Liberation Army (TPNPB), an armed separatist group, claimed responsibility for those killings. Sebby Sanbom, a spokesman for the rebels, said last week that an “exchange of fire” took place and those killed were soldiers from the Indonesian army’s engineering detachment, not civilian workers.


“Because this MRP is a representative body for Papuan Indigenous People, we don’t see the Nduga case as a separate issue, but part of what has happened so far in Papua,” Timotius told BenarNews on Monday.


The Papua office of the National Human Rights Commission (Komnas HAM) has been tasked with monitoring a police investigation into the killings, Komnas HAM Chairman Ahmad Taufan Damanik said.


“It does not have to be the form of an investigation team, but National Human Rights Commission officials in Papua are directly monitoring the progress of the investigation,” he told BenarNews.


On Sunday, U.S.-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) issued a statement deploring the killings of the construction workers and pressing police to investigate.


“A Papua militant group’s attack on a worksite raises grave concerns that require a full investigation,” the statement quoted Elaine Pearson of HRW as saying. “Militants and responding security forces should not inflict harm on ordinary Papuans.”



‘Four civilians killed'


Meanwhile on Monday, a local youth leader alleged that security forces shot dead four civilians on Dec. 3 and Dec. 5, including at least one clergyman, while troops were trying to retrieve bodies of the workers killed by TPNPB guerrillas in the Mbua, Yall and Yigi districts of Nduga.


“Two [were killed] in Mbua and two in Yigi. One [of those killed] in Mbua is my uncle. His name is Yulianus Tabuni,” Samuel Tabani, a Papuan youth leader who once ran for office as the regent of Nduga, told BenarNews.


“My uncle was a member of the church assembly in Mbua,” Samuel said.


He said relatives told him that government forces had pressured several pastors in the area to give them information about the rebels.


Rev. Benny Giay, who chairs the Kingmi Papua Synod, said church members notified him that Yulianus had been killed.
The synod has around 60,000 members in Nduga.


“Members of the Evangelical Tent Church (Kingmi) reported that Yulianus was shot dead by security forces in the church while they were evacuating victims of the Nduga incident, but we don’t know why,” Benny told BenarNews.


Papua police spokesman Commissioner Ahmad Mustafa Kamal said officers were trying to verify the information about the alleged killings of four civilians.


“We also don’t know if they were members of the KKB,” he told BenarNews, using a law enforcement term for the separatist group.


“They might have attacked [security forces], and there was an exchange of gunfire. Some of them might have been shot. We don’t know. There needs to be identification,” he added.



Displaced people


In related news, hundreds of families were reported to have fled to the forest for fear of becoming victims of anti-insurgency operations by government forces.


Some of those who fled were members of the synod, Benny said.


About five clans had fled to the forest since a manhunt for the insurgents was launched, he added, citing reports from his congregation in Mbua.


“It is estimated that more than 1,500 people have been displaced,” Benny said.


He said he feared that the displaced people would suffer starvation and health problems.


However, Lt. Col. Candra Dianto, the local military commander, said residents who fled had come home on Sunday with assistance from troops.

“They have returned to their respective villages because they feel it is safe,” he said.



Body found


On Sunday, the decomposed body of a worker believed to be among those attacked by the rebels was found in Puncak Kabo, near the scene of the Dec. 2 and 3 killings, police said.


The body of the man identified as Matius Palinggi had gunshot wounds and was found about 1.5 km – less than a mile – from where the corpses of 16 other victims of the shooting were found. Security forces were still looking for the bodies of four others who were still missing.


The killings occurred after police arrested more than 500 activists in rallies across Indonesia on Dec. 1, the date regarded by most Papuans as their independence day from the Dutch.


Papua, Indonesia’s easternmost province, is rich in natural resources but one of the country’s most impoverished regions.


Papua declared its independence from rule by the Netherlands on Dec. 1, 1961, but that was rejected by the Dutch and later by Indonesia.


In 1963, Indonesian forces invaded the region and annexed it following a contentious referendum in 1969. During the plebiscite, according to rights groups, security forces selected only more than 1,000 people to agree to the region’s formal absorption into the archipelagic nation.

https://www.benarnews.org/english/ne...018162436.html

Originally Posted by misskit

archipelagic

...good word...

Is anyone beginning to see the pointlessness of this dispute now? It seems that strong religious overtones are present here also. If Manny accepts that the same is true of Israel Palestine, he might have been accidentally right in the first place.
The fact that unlawful killing is wrong leaves both sides guilty in the dispute. Have the deaths on either side changed anything, or moved closer to resolution? Pointless.

Originally Posted by tomcat

...a) greater media exposure to the oppressive Jakarta regime (think Timor) and the determination of Free Papua, b) increased funding from Papuan/other supporters to continue resistance (and yes, killing when necessary) and c) the possibility that Jakarta politicians/nationalists might slow or rethink their rapacious policies...such deaths aren't meaningless at all: just bad luck for those caught up in the struggle...

I’m sure I don’t need to point out the value of one life in this or any other dispute. Ways and means. This is not the way nor the means by which you or your opposite number will achieve a desirable outcome.

Originally Posted by Switch

This is not the way nor the means by which you or your opposite number will achieve a desirable outcome.

...a desirable outcome is, of course, a subjective notion...

Originally Posted by Switch

I’m sure I don’t need to point out the value of one life in this or any other dispute.

...one might ask what the value of one life is...or one death for that matter...

Originally Posted by tomcat

...a desirable outcome is, of course, a subjective notion...
...one might ask what the value of one life is...or one death for that matter...

I am seeking an opportunity for you to consider that value in the light of your subjective notion. Have a nice day.

Originally Posted by Switch

I am seeking an opportunity for you to consider that value in the light of your subjective notion

...seek and (perhaps) ye shall find...