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  1. #976
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    If a lot of it focuses on education, about both geology and safety, sounds like a good thing.
    I would imagine most of it will focus on extracting the maximum amount of money from the hordes of rubber necking tourists whose only purpose in visiting will be a t shirt and the obligatory selfie.

    If some of that money went to improving the lot of the thousands of stateless and persecuted refugee kids who live in that area, some of whom were trapped in that cave, then maybe some good will come from this new " major tourist attraction ", but i suspect their plight will soon be forgotten and the onerous restrictions imposed upon their freedoms in thailand will not be eased one iota.

    Meanwhile, local officials will be happily jumping on this latest gravy train as soon as it pulls up at the mouth of the cave.

    All aboard, mind the gap!!! Ding ding. Kerching kerching.

  2. #977
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    Quote Originally Posted by birding View Post
    Do not argue with fools.


    Do not argue with fools.


    Do not argue with fools.


    I am finding it quite difficult at present and must remind myself.
    You can call me a fool, Birding. You've called me an idiot a couple of times, and now a fool. And each and every time you've offered those insults is because you disagree with my take on events, without actually saying why your take is right and mine is not. Who is the fool and the idiot and the childish name-caller? Because I back up my opinion with media quotes and common sense drawing of conclusions.
    Each and every time I present media quotes that go against your romatic view, I'm labelled an idiot.
    Answer this once and for all, because I think this was the media quote that first raised my hackles and me quoting it raised yours: I quoted the now ex govenor as saying words to the effect of "Thanks to the THAI Navy SEALs who found the boys...". He said that (according to the posted link) and I pointed it out. To me it reeked of what many were expecting and Prayut confirmed with his instruction: "Don't hurt Thailand's image", and reinforced with his applause to "The people of Thailand and the grace of the King" with no mention of the Brits. Really, if you have not ever come across Thai xenophobia and Thai inefficiency, and Thai blind obedience to stupidness, then you have indeed lived a charmed life in Thailand. There were better ways to say you didn't think my take was right, the main one being to say why. Not to speculate (stupidly) that the dead SEAL may have got a leak which he couldn't see in the dark water...some scuba experienced members here have also mentioned their disbelief that it was anything but a mistake on the dead guy's part. Even the SEALs have virtually admitted that the guy was over-zealous and that was maybe due to trying to live up to a certain standard that the foreign divers had set. No, probably a small leak in dark water, poor chap, eh? People can be sad at the demise of a brave guy, but that doesn't mean ignore the foolhardiness of said brave guy. Hide away from it? Why?
    (When it was shown that some 9/11 firefighters had looted a Gap jeans store, anyone who mentioned it was sent to online coventry...why? It's a simmilar phenomenon here: Heroes can't be shown to be dummies/wankers/criminals/whatever or have any flaws at all. A really dumb attitude for the unwashed masses).

    There are a few things that I've defended myself against you for, and not one of them have you responded to with other than things like the above teen girl style drama "don't argue with fools, don't ..."
    Come on Birding...don't be a teenage girl with the dramatics, defend your stance with facts and reason, not insults and ignorant speculation.

    Same goes for AO. Call me an arsehole rather than admit he was wrong.
    You're both decent blokes normally....why the change on this subject and why not face up to the unromantic other side of the story?

  3. #978
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    A mix of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and Dunning-Kruger Syndrome.....

  4. #979
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    FOJ...I taught you about the Dunning-Kruger Syndrome thing, which, ironically, you have now started using against other people.

    Your reds do not hurt.

  5. #980
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    The ex-governor has praised and thanked all the people involved in the rescue including praising and thanking foreigners. To me, it's no big deal if he made an error in a particular statement.

  6. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverna View Post
    The ex-governor has praised and thanked all the people involved in the rescue including praising and thanking foreigners. To me, it's no big deal if he made an error in a particular statement.
    Fair point.
    Was it an error, or a deliberate piece of fake propaganda? Who knows. In light of Prayut's instruction to maintain Thailand's image...hmmm.
    But, TIT. Am I an idiot for feeling a bit agrieved at the time and thinking it not uncommon for TIT? Maybe...but AO and Birding need to be clearer on why they feel they can call me a fool, an idiot, and an arsehole for having had those speculative moments.
    My speculations were a WHOLE lot more based on history, experience, media reports, and reason than some of Birdings ridiculous speculations, bless his heart for being so loyal.
    FFS, even me admitting I was silly not to have thought about people emerging from the cave needing sunnies and thanking him for pointing it out got yet another accusation that I was Thai bashing!! FFS! I can't even admit to a mistake. Shows you how bloody-mindedly biased he is.

  7. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverna View Post
    The ex-governor has praised and thanked all the people involved in the rescue including praising and thanking foreigners. To me, it's no big deal if he made an error in a particular statement.
    The Thai Government awarded Tiger Woods an honorary Thai Citizenship for being able to hit a golf ball!

    I wonder if they will award the heroes that risked their lives to save these Thai kids.

  8. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loy Toy View Post
    The Thai Government awarded Tiger Woods an honorary Thai Citizenship for being able to hit a golf ball!
    I remember that, they wanted to make a Big deal out of it, he gave them ten minutes at the airport!

  9. #984
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    What utter cockwombles.

  10. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airportwo View Post
    I remember that, they wanted to make a Big deal out of it, he gave them ten minutes at the airport!
    And his appearance was not free of charge...

  11. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seekingasylum View Post

    I hope they will give each boy a diazepam before beginning the journey.
    Clearly they were reading this back on the 8 th.

  12. #987
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    You is da man
    Fancy having a crack at Boris Johnsons job.

  13. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    And his appearance was not free of charge...
    Nothing Tiger ever did or still does is free of charge, he was the first to demand a $1,000,000 appearance fee just for turning up to events he didn't have to or want to play in.

    True or not I don't know for sure, but a story did the rounds that The King invited him for an audience during one of his few (and last) visits to Thailand and he turned him down. I can certainly believe the King wanting to meet him, and I can believe Woods being too arrogant to acknowledge anyone could be more important than him, so as there's no photos or documentation of them ever meeting I think the story is probably true.

  14. #989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pragmatic View Post
    Ketamine apparently. According to UK newspapers.
    You read it in a news paper,, doesn't that tell you something.

  15. #990
    Thailand Expat Pragmatic's Avatar
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    Now I can see Mr Musk's reason for his rescue capsual.



    https://www.vox.com/2018/7/11/175619...boys-stretcher

  16. #991
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    It has now been confirmed that the boys were given a sedative for the trip out, there is a wide range of sedation from a mild tranquiliser to completely knocked out as for a major operation.

    At this point neither I or anyone except Dr Harris and perhaps a few others knows what they were given or how much.
    If what I read is correct as an anaesthetist Dr Harris has over 30 years experience in the field of sedation and cave rescue he was the expert on the spot, he made the decision that they needed a sedative.

    Whatever the boys were given it worked they are all out alive and safe there can be no better outcome than that.

  17. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by birding View Post
    It has now been confirmed that the boys were given a sedative for the trip out,
    I think that was pretty much confirmed by both Thai authorities and some of the rescue team yesterday or the day before.
    What hasn't been explained (or speculated upon) is why the Thai authorities, from the PM down, say it was a mild sedative that just settled their nerves, while the divers who were actually there said the boys were out for the count. The PM was proactive in contradicting the reports that the boys were unconscious. I do wonder why that point was important to him.
    I tend to take the word of the men who were there. I suppose that makes me a Thai basher for not believing the PM.

  18. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pragmatic View Post
    Now I can see Mr Musk's reason for his rescue capsual.



    https://www.vox.com/2018/7/11/175619...boys-stretcher
    That is someones idea of how it may have happened but I doubt it is correct for there was a (mutch mentioned) place during the dive that was only 40cm wide they could not have got a stretcher with a boy past that nor could Musk's idea have got through.

    One report said each boy was tethered under one of the rescuers, that is actually attached to him for the dive section but they could not get through the narrow gap like this so the boy would have had to be unclipped, a rescuer go first the boy next followed by the second rescuer keeping as close contact as possible.
    This was said to be the most dangerous part and whether it could have been done without the cooperation of the boy I dont know.

    They were certainly carried over any out of water traverse this is clearly shown in photos and video and they would have needed to be for sedated of not after 2 weeks in the cave they would not have been able to negotiate these places by themselves.

  19. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pragmatic View Post
    Now I can see Mr Musk's reason for his rescue capsual.
    Yes, and the co-leader of the dive team continuing to ask Musk for it even after CR govenor said he didn't need it.


    Quote Originally Posted by birding View Post
    place during the dive that was only 40cm wide they could not have got a stretcher with a boy past that nor could Musk's idea have got through.
    Musk would argue with you on that as he assured the dive leader that it could have got through. 38 cms, I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by birding View Post
    ... but they could not get through the narrow gap like this so the boy would have had to be unclipped, a rescuer go first the boy next followed by the second rescuer keeping as close contact as possible.
    I agree with your speculation here.


    Quote Originally Posted by birding View Post
    This was said to be the most dangerous part and whether it could have been done without the cooperation of the boy I dont know.
    Well, 3 of the divers said the boys were unconscious, so my guess is that they did do it without the cooperation of the boys.

  20. #995
    Philippine Expat Davis Knowlton's Avatar
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    I really fail to see what difference it makes if the kids were sedated to one degree or another before starting their journey. As far as I know, there are no doctors among TD posters. I know no TD posters were in the cave. The doctor made a call. It worked. End of. Well done.

  21. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton View Post
    I really fail to see what difference it makes if the kids were sedated to one degree or another before starting their journey.
    Me too, and that is why I wonder why Prayut and the ex-govenor contradict the divers who were there. I don't have to be a doctor to wonder that.

  22. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maanaam View Post
    Fair point.
    Was it an error, or a deliberate piece of fake propaganda? Who knows. In light of Prayut's instruction to maintain Thailand's image...hmmm.
    But, TIT. Am I an idiot for feeling a bit agrieved at the time and thinking it not uncommon for TIT? Maybe...but AO and Birding need to be clearer on why they feel they can call me a fool, an idiot, and an arsehole for having had those speculative moments.
    My speculations were a WHOLE lot more based on history, experience, media reports, and reason than some of Birdings ridiculous speculations, bless his heart for being so loyal.
    FFS, even me admitting I was silly not to have thought about people emerging from the cave needing sunnies and thanking him for pointing it out got yet another accusation that I was Thai bashing!! FFS! I can't even admit to a mistake. Shows you how bloody-mindedly biased he is.
    No horse here, but questionable in itself was our glorious leader's instruction to preserve Thailand's image. At the time I thought it tasteless to obnoxious, as did btw several Thais around the communal somtam, considering what little constructive effort the Thai authorities had thrown at the crisis before inviting farang expertise, and only doing so, it seems, when the cat bolted and the world discovered wtf was going on.

    Easy to speculate, and mine says the kids would still be in there dead or alive if the global media failed to get the story out, while our glories would still be soothing the people with talk of prayer and merit, loads of activity and coachloads of political posers under a blanket of pretty Royal Thai Navy choppers.

    Bottom line is some points for finally doing the right thing, and the kids are out.

  23. #998
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton View Post
    I really fail to see what difference it makes if the kids were sedated to one degree or another before starting their journey.
    Because it will be like a splinter under the fingernails of the Thais.

    "Plucky kids dive to safety with help of navy seals and foreigners"

    "Foreigners haul out 13 unconscious Thais"

  24. #999
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    This an interesting read a warning to the boys from those who have been exploited before:

    Guard against exploitation: that's the message Chilean miners have offered the 12 Thai boys and their football coach following the harrowing ordeal of spending 18 days trapped in a cave.

    Before even the clothes of the Wild Boar football team players had dried following the last dramatic escape mission on Tuesday from the flooded cave, already plans were being made to turn their heroic tale into a Hollywood movie.


    Eight years ago, 33 Chilean miners were stuck underground for 69 days after a cave-in, before their torment was turned into a motion picture starring Antonio Banderas.
    But although "The 33" grossed $25 million at the box office, the miners never saw a penny of that.

    "Hopefully they'll make a film, a television series, a best-selling novel, but that they do it well, that they are smart and don't get taken for a ride by fraudsters," Mario Sepulveda, who was played by Banderas in "The 33", told AFP.


    The boys are aged 11 to 16 and even their coach is only 25, whereas the Chilean miners were all grown men.


    Many of them have suffered terribly since their traumatic experience in the San Jose mine in the Atacama desert.


    "The most important thing is that the authorities and their families protect these kids because many people just want to take advantage," said Luis Urzua, another miner.
    On Tuesday night, the managing partner of US faith-based production house Pure Flix, Michael Scott revealed on Twitter his plans to turn the story into a film.


    'They destroyed us'



    But before worrying about how to sell their stories, Urzua warns that recovering from the "the experience of a lifetime" won't be easy.
    "It's been eight years but there are still many things we can't overcome," added Urzua.
    Another miner, Jose Ojeda, had to be admitted to a psychiatric hospital.
    And there is bitterness at having been exploited by lawyers, producers and others who wanted to benefit from their story.


    "Once they'd got the information off us, they disappeared," said Urzua.
    He says they were badly advised and fell for promises they would be made millionaires so "ceded all (intellectual) rights for life."
    Urzua is amongst a group of miners who want to rescind that decision.
    Despite spending more than two months 600 meters below the surface, "we can't even sell one line of the 33," he lamented.
    Urzua says the miners never received a penny from the film, directed by Mexican Patricia Riggen, or the book written by Los Angeles Times journalist Hector Tobar, whom the Chileans picked to write the official account of their trauma.


    "They destroyed us," said Urzua, who praised the protective circle that has enveloped the Thai boys.
    Urzua says all he got was "less" than the five million pesos (less than $8,000 in today's exchange rate) that Chilean businessman Leonardo Farkas handed each miner as they left their captivity.
    Sepulveda, though, has faith in the Thai footballers saying the "strength of these boys is different to ours."
    "If they keep training, they'll handle it really well, as long as they stick together," he told AFP

    Beware of fraudsters, Chilean miners tell rescued Thai boys

  25. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by birding View Post
    That is someones idea of how it may have happened but I doubt it is correct for there was a (mutch mentioned) place during the dive that was only 40cm wide they could not have got a stretcher with a boy past that nor could Musk's idea have got through.

    One report said each boy was tethered under one of the rescuers, that is actually attached to him for the dive section but they could not get through the narrow gap like this so the boy would have had to be unclipped, a rescuer go first the boy next followed by the second rescuer keeping as close contact as possible.
    This was said to be the most dangerous part and whether it could have been done without the cooperation of the boy I dont know.

    They were certainly carried over any out of water traverse this is clearly shown in photos and video and they would have needed to be for sedated of not after 2 weeks in the cave they would not have been able to negotiate these places by themselves.
    If you use a capsual like this in tight close areas,,,they cannot bend to navigate such areas to the point where they might just get stuck,,,,then what might I ask

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