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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack
    if the west decided to impose sanctions on Thailand where would they turn to increase there trade.
    Not in a million years would that happen. Ok, maybe US and a few other countries but no way. It's a hungry resource needing planet out there.

    "Control your resources and you will control your world" - Gil Scott Heron

  2. #27
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    Well the establishment of Thailand certainly don't seem as if they wish to let go, anything is possible, not saying its going to happen.

    But just where is this all going to end.

    Its only a matter of time before the shit really hits the fan.

    The chatter around here is getting more vocal, i've never heard them like this before.

  3. #28
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    The question is will Thailand middle class be ready to accept the hardship that was imposed on the Burmese. The elite always find a way around. The rural poor never knew better. Thailand middle class is very "soft". Of course people are entitled to their choice. But they also should accept the consequences.
    The things we regret most is the things we didn't do

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack
    Well the establishment of Thailand certainly don't seem as if they wish to let go
    Why should the establishment let go of their own country to foreign interests?


    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack
    Its only a matter of time before the shit really hits the fan.
    Maybe, maybe not.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack View Post
    Well the establishment of Thailand certainly don't seem as if they wish to let go, anything is possible, not saying its going to happen.

    But just where is this all going to end.

    Its only a matter of time before the shit really hits the fan.

    The chatter around here is getting more vocal, i've never heard them like this before.

    The Establishment anywhere will never surrender their grasp on things....
    All the respected establishments just twist and manipulate differently.

    There isn't much difference between Thai and their brethren worldwide....just have an approach that's very viewable on the surface.
    Screwing the populations is what they do. Be it under the guise of a "civilised" rule of democratic law, Socialist doctrine, or military junta.

    The magic acts appear to differ - but the same nonetheless.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perota View Post
    The question is will Thailand middle class be ready to accept the hardship that was imposed on the Burmese. The elite always find a way around. The rural poor never knew better. Thailand middle class is very "soft". Of course people are entitled to their choice. But they also should accept the consequences.
    Hardships. Defined as: not able to be mindless consumers living being one's means - regardless of your status.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier View Post

    The US is in no moral position whatsoever to tell others what to do.

    Sure it can bully - but everyone can see through that shit.

    It would be totally different if the US was a bastion of goodness.
    A valid point Albert but then with a few changes :

    The Army is in no moral position whatsoever to tell others what to do.

    Sure it can bully - but everyone can see through that shit

    It would be totally different if the Army was the bastion of goodness.

    And you would be stretching credibility to argue otherwise. After all, they have just torn up their own constitution , the one they wrote , because it was still not watertight enough to prevent the electorate having its wicked way.

    Albert, I can understand your dislike of the Shinawatra clan. There is a lot not to like. But what it really is hard to comprehend is why you would believe what is happening now will lead to something better when historically ....it hasn't.

    This cannot be about corruption or meglomania because even Thaksins opponents concede that government by the Democrats is more corrupt, albeit a lot more mouths are fed. I don't want an argument Albert but what exactly is your position ? Why is this better. After all...power corrupts but absolute power ..etc

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    they have just torn up their own constitution , the one they wrote , because it was still not watertight enough to prevent the electorate having its wicked way.
    In the same way every consumer product gets better and better, 100m runners get faster and faster?

    It's human nature to improve things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    what it really is hard to comprehend is why you would believe what is happening now will lead to something better when historically ....it hasn't.
    I live in Bangkok. A difficult city at the best of times. For the last 6 months we've been beseiged by a motly crew of protesters/onlookers and extra noodle sellers. The place has been like the 3rd day of Glastonbury for about 4 months. The police dissapeared for about 4 months. Yeah yeah, they didn't want "to cause confrontation" but at least they could have helped with the fucking chaos. The army have dispersed the protestors and things are starting to get back to normal. It's already better. Not a question of "will it lead" - it has already.

    Sure - I can only give my side of the story, and you guys in the country see a different picture. But I tell it how it is - as far as it plays out when and where I am.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    I don't want an argument Albert but what exactly is your position ?
    I'd like to see reforms to many areas.
    I'd like these reforms to be intelligent, modern and sensitive to modern technologies.
    I'd like to see this done in a reasonable amount of time in order to fascilitate real democratic elections with no tricks and a properly informed electorate.
    I'd like the results to be respected and championed.

    But in a sentence, I'd like to see Thailand flourish in all the areas it's lacking, progress quickly and be a big face in the ASEAN gang.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack
    US Defence secretary Chuck Hagel demands the Thai military junta
    Who the fuck is chuck to tell Thailand what to do?
    He is the Secretary of Defence for the country that;
    1. Is one of the main sources of social development funds. The NIH, the US Army Medical Research unit, multiple NGOs have provided large amounts of money over the years.
    2. The USA has granted some preferred trading arrangements to Thailand.
    3. The USA is the primary source of assistance when Thailand has a catastrophe. (E.g. Thailand has minimal helicopter lift capacity and would ask the USA to provide airlift in an emergency.)
    4. Thailand expects the USA to maintain a presence in the region to counter expansionist China.

    Why so harsh on the USA anyway? It has been late by a few days. Several European countries have already expressed a stronger view (e.g. France and Norway). The EU foreign policy position as a whole, is similar to that of the USA. Australia, Canada and other countries have expressed the same sentiment, albeit in diplomatic double talk.
    Kindness is spaying and neutering one's companion animals.

  10. #35
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    jeez Albert you are taking the piss i hope, so you reckon the constitution should be improved to focus on the thai people getting fekked over more?

    In the same way every consumer product gets better and better, 100m runners get faster and faster?

    It's human nature to improve things.

    so the below quote is it about you and the inconvience its caused you or the thai people

    I live in Bangkok. A difficult city at the best of times. For the last 6 months we've been beseiged by a motly crew of protesters/onlookers and extra noodle sellers. The place has been like the 3rd day of Glastonbury for about 4 months. The police dissapeared for about 4 months. Yeah yeah, they didn't want "to cause confrontation" but at least they could have helped with the fucking chaos. The army have dispersed the protestors and things are starting to get back to normal. It's already better. Not a question of "will it lead" - it has already.

    Sure - I can only give my side of the story, and you guys in the country see a different picture. But I tell it how it is - as far as it plays out when and where I am.
    Last edited by Yasojack; 31-05-2014 at 11:32 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    It's human nature to improve things.
    Not by making the same mistakes over and over...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by zygote1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack
    US Defence secretary Chuck Hagel demands the Thai military junta
    Who the fuck is chuck to tell Thailand what to do?
    He is the Secretary of Defence for the country that;
    1. Is one of the main sources of social development funds. The NIH, the US Army Medical Research unit, multiple NGOs have provided large amounts of money over the years.
    2. The USA has granted some preferred trading arrangements to Thailand.
    3. The USA is the primary source of assistance when Thailand has a catastrophe. (E.g. Thailand has minimal helicopter lift capacity and would ask the USA to provide airlift in an emergency.)
    4. Thailand expects the USA to maintain a presence in the region to counter expansionist China.

    Why so harsh on the USA anyway? It has been late by a few days. Several European countries have already expressed a stronger view (e.g. France and Norway). The EU foreign policy position as a whole, is similar to that of the USA. Australia, Canada and other countries have expressed the same sentiment, albeit in diplomatic double talk.
    Social development? In what sense "social"...??

  13. #38
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    Albert Shagnastier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zygote1
    He is the Secretary of Defence for the country that;
    1. Is one of the main sources of social development funds. The NIH, the US Army Medical Research unit, multiple NGOs have provided large amounts of money over the years.
    2. The USA has granted some preferred trading arrangements to Thailand.
    3. The USA is the primary source of assistance when Thailand has a catastrophe. (E.g. Thailand has minimal helicopter lift capacity and would ask the USA to provide airlift in an emergency.)
    4. Thailand expects the USA to maintain a presence in the region to counter expansionist China.

    All these things are really to benefit the US though (with a few bells and whistles thrown in) and not really for Thai benefit.

    Why so harsh on the USA anyway? It has been late by a few days. Several European countries have already expressed a stronger view (e.g. France and Norway). The EU foreign policy position as a whole, is similar to that of the USA. Australia, Canada and other countries have expressed the same sentiment, albeit in diplomatic double talk.
    are you serious?

    9/11 was orchestrated by Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheyney and Co.

    They used this false flag to murder over a million innocent Iraqis and Afghans. They murdered and plundered - oil and heroin.

    The knock-on effect to everyone around the world in so many different and important areas has been severe.

    Why so harsh? - that's why.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    A valid point Albert but then with a few changes : The Army is in no moral position whatsoever to tell others what to do. Sure it can bully - but everyone can see through that shit It would be totally different if the Army was the bastion of goodness.
    And you would be stretching credibility to argue otherwise. After all, they have just torn up their own constitution , the one they wrote , because it was still not watertight enough to prevent the electorate having its wicked way.
    Albert, I can understand your dislike of the Shinawatra clan. There is a lot not to like. But what it really is hard to comprehend is why you would believe what is happening now will lead to something better when historically ....it hasn't.
    This cannot be about corruption or meglomania because even Thaksins opponents concede that government by the Democrats is more corrupt, albeit a lot more mouths are fed. I don't want an argument Albert but what exactly is your position ? Why is this better. After all...power corrupts but absolute power ..etc
    Another great post, Bangyai...Will Albert get it?...

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack
    jeez Albert you are taking the piss i hope, so you reckon the constitution should be improved to focus on the thai people getting fekked over more?
    Like Bangyai said - I don't want an argument. Of course I fucking believe in democracy but a rigged game means shit - and that's what it was.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack View Post
    Perota

    I suppose it depends which coat tails Thailand are preparing to hold onto now for there own future.
    Japan and the US are coming out strongly for Vietnam and the Philippines in the current spat with China- Japan is even dispatching Coast Guard vessels to Vietnam (these vessels have already been buzzed by Chinese planes). Thailand has been eerily silent as the China Sea crisis escalates, perhaps because it is preoccupied or because it isn't sure which side its bread is buttered on anymore.

    Otherwise, Thailand has seemed hell-bent since about 2006 on ditching what was a solid economic and political leadership role in SE Asia.
    “You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her think.” Dorothy Parker

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack
    if the west decided to impose sanctions on Thailand where would they turn to increase there trade.
    Not in a million years would that happen. Ok, maybe US and a few other countries but no way. It's a hungry resource needing planet out there.

    "Control your resources and you will control your world" - Gil Scott Heron
    The USA and others are not dependant upon Thailand for resources. However, Thailand is dependant upon access to the North American, EU, Japanese and EU market. 65% of Thailand's GDP is derived from the export market of which 35% of Thailand's exports go to the aforementioned countries. Thailand's electronics, machinery & equipment sectors are particularly vulnerable because its neighbors would like to take market share. Other rubber & latex exporters in the region would love to see Thailand lose some market share. Sometimes trade sanctions are a gift from the heavens for market competitors. Remember the oil sanctions imposed on Iran? South Korea, Turkey and India snagged some very low cost oil when the Iranians were forced to sell well below market price. That low cost energy helped India capture a larger share of Thailand's traditional rice export market, because it allowed India to produce rice at a cost lower than that of Thailand. I can see Vietnam's ministry of trade & commerce moving fast to exploit Thailand's unpopularity, especially now that Vietnam considers the North American export market a priority.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaitongBoy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    It's human nature to improve things.
    Not by making the same mistakes over and over...
    Every journey starts with one step.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by zygote1
    The USA and others are not dependant upon Thailand for resources. However, Thailand is dependant upon access to the North American, EU, Japanese and EU market.
    In fairness, all you're saying there is you have them by the balls. Doesn't mean they're happy about it or that they respect you for it.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    Every journey starts with one step.
    The repeated "Wrong-step boogie"...

  21. #46
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    thats the whole point it is rigged to suit the establishment, i'm sure all agree Thailand is fekked and needs to change for the better of all.

    I not want to argue either just putting my opinion across

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack
    jeez Albert you are taking the piss i hope, so you reckon the constitution should be improved to focus on the thai people getting fekked over more?
    Like Bangyai said - I don't want an argument. Of course I fucking believe in democracy but a rigged game means shit - and that's what it was.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    they have just torn up their own constitution , the one they wrote , because it was still not watertight enough to prevent the electorate having its wicked way.
    In the same way every consumer product gets better and better, 100m runners get faster and faster?

    It's human nature to improve things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    what it really is hard to comprehend is why you would believe what is happening now will lead to something better when historically ....it hasn't.
    I live in Bangkok. A difficult city at the best of times. For the last 6 months we've been beseiged by a motly crew of protesters/onlookers and extra noodle sellers. The place has been like the 3rd day of Glastonbury for about 4 months. The police dissapeared for about 4 months. Yeah yeah, they didn't want "to cause confrontation" but at least they could have helped with the fucking chaos. The army have dispersed the protestors and things are starting to get back to normal. It's already better. Not a question of "will it lead" - it has already.

    Sure - I can only give my side of the story, and you guys in the country see a different picture. But I tell it how it is - as far as it plays out when and where I am.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    I don't want an argument Albert but what exactly is your position ?
    I'd like to see reforms to many areas.
    I'd like these reforms to be intelligent, modern and sensitive to modern technologies.
    I'd like to see this done in a reasonable amount of time in order to fascilitate real democratic elections with no tricks and a properly informed electorate.
    I'd like the results to be respected and championed.

    But in a sentence, I'd like to see Thailand flourish in all the areas it's lacking, progress quickly and be a big face in the ASEAN gang.
    Again, a lot of valid points Albert. But the motley crew you are refering to would never have been allowed to get away with so much had they not only had the armies support but also their behind scenes encouragement.

    The police had to back of as they were intimidated by the better armed military. When the police did try to intervene the army immediatly did some saber rattling.

    So , in other words, the army have cleaned up what is in effect their own mess, a mess they encouraged so that when the coup came it would seem like a relief.

    I would also say that Bangkok is not Thailand , there's a lot of country out there north of Rangsit. People all over Thailand pour in millions of baht in taxes every time they buy anything ( VAT etc ) and they naturaly feel that Bangkokians want to hog everything.

    As for what you would like to see, I think everyone here would agree with you on the points you have set out. Unfortunately, this is Thailand , and really, Bangkok is not really interested in reforms for the benefit of everyone. Bangkok sees itself as the heart of the country and the people are just the blood. They tend to think that the heart is more important than the blood but this is hardly the case.

    I really wish that what you wish for will happen but sadly, 35 years of living here amongst the Thais does not make me believe it will be so. It will just be the same old same old.

    You mentioned at the begining that consumer products improve and humans run faster. But the old school here are not bothered about that. They want things too be as they were, where everyone knew their place and their place was at the top and respected by all.

    Those days are gone and they can, and have bullied people into silence but IMO its a step back not forward.



    Anyway ,long drive tomorrow to collect the MIL from upcountry so I'm off to bed.
    At least I'll be getting a change of Dtookada nah rot

  23. #48
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    Anything, any change that might somehow educate Thais is out of the question. The poorer the Thai the better off those who govern him. Remember the first rule of holding high office.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by zygote1 View Post
    The USA and others are not dependant upon Thailand for resources. However, Thailand is dependant upon access to the North American, EU, Japanese and EU market. 65% of Thailand's GDP is derived from the export market of which 35% of Thailand's exports go to the aforementioned countries. Thailand's electronics, machinery & equipment sectors are particularly vulnerable because its neighbors would like to take market share. Other rubber & latex exporters in the region would love to see Thailand lose some market share. Sometimes trade sanctions are a gift from the heavens for market competitors. Remember the oil sanctions imposed on Iran? South Korea, Turkey and India snagged some very low cost oil when the Iranians were forced to sell well below market price. That low cost energy helped India capture a larger share of Thailand's traditional rice export market, because it allowed India to produce rice at a cost lower than that of Thailand. I can see Vietnam's ministry of trade & commerce moving fast to exploit Thailand's unpopularity, especially now that Vietnam considers the North American export market a priority.
    A very balanced review. Thank you.

    A small thing. The recent events in Thailand have forced me to re-consider any future role in Thailand - & to begin serious investigation of Malaysia & Vietnam. For me, this means I've a fair bit of homework to do, but, Thailand doesn't appear so stable going forwards into the next 10-15 years, I believe.

    The impact of my decision would mean absolutely nothing to Thailand's economy, but, I'd dare to venture that many other large players will have been re-assessing their future plans as well.

    All told, unless Thailand ceases to be the black-sheep of SE Asian democracy, that it will begin slipping behind its neighbours - fairly rapidly.

    The blue coup needs to do what it intended to do - make the relevant top-down democracy changes it thinks will work - let the people push back with their bottom-up democracy model & eventually see where the two meet. The legacy team cannot win forever, without learning to work with the people. People power, when properly expressed, trumps guns & toy soldiers every time. Perhaps this will be the time of reckoning?

  25. #50
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    ^^"Ignorance is strength"- now where have I seen that before. . .

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