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  1. #3951
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    but the fact remains the last time this nation was really doing well was under Thaksin, in a legitimately appointed government.
    again, that link is weak, you are implying that a "legitimate" government is linked to economic prosperity. You can't make that call seriously just because it happened empirically.

    Also on the democratic political front, the Thaksin years were a complete disaster, you seem to conveniently forget that, or maybe you weren't there or you were too drunk to remember between your drinking binge trips to Bangkok after a hard week in HK.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    a lost decade in the larger scheme of things
    not economically, but yes politically it was. It started in 2001 btw, not 2006.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    an opportunity for the clownish Democrat party to actually reform itself in some meaningful way,
    it will never happen, it's not a political party. The other political parties in Thailand seem to like being part of a monopoly or consortium, very Chinese like thinking, therefore they tend to gather together and form bigger parties with more leverage. TRT rings a bell ?

  2. #3952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    you are implying that a "legitimate" government is linked to economic prosperity
    The point I am making is more of a 'negative' point really- namely an illegitimate government is linked to economic stagnation and fundamental neglect of the national interest. Whatever the appoint Abhi government may have been capable of is basically a moot point- because they were pretty much incapable of doing anything (except pick fights with their neighbours and accelerate corruption and military spending) because of those interests and factions they were in troth to.

    Looked at dispassionately, the 'lost decade' could have been far worse. Probably the main things 'lost' were FDI, improvement in basic living standards (hence development of consumer economy), and a near total neglect of Thailands educational requirements as a developing nation. Real estate, the THB & SET haven't done too badly- but they could, should and would have done better sans Coup.
    Last edited by sabang; 21-04-2012 at 08:24 AM.

  3. #3953
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    namely an illegitimate government is linked to economic stagnation and fundamental neglect of the national interest.
    again speculation, economies are not run by government, but private businesses. There was nothing except the coup of 1 year and the economic crisis (you forgot that one I guess) that stopped such strong growth. Economic stagnation had nothing to do with the illegitimate government, and you can't make that link in a credible economic logic.

    For national interest and long term strategic planning, yes, it's true, the Dems and the Coup didn't help at all, it just stopped any long term positive effect that a capable government could have achieved. But that capable government could have been as much illegitimate as legitimate, so again your argument doesn't hold. Election or legitimate government doesn't guarantee a capable government.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    Whatever the appoint Abhi government may have been capable of is basically a moot point- because they were pretty much incapable of doing anything
    it was hard for them to do anything when they had to deal with so many enemies on so many fronts. Since Thaksin wanted a monopoly on populist ideas, he did everything to disturb the LEGITIMATE Democrat government from governing. If that's not FASCISM at play, then I don't know what is. Basically, the Dems found themselves in a snake pit with too many fascist groups to deal with. A military government would have been a better option at that stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    Real estate, the THB & SET haven't done too badly- but they could, should and would have done better sans Coup.
    again, assumptions and a call you can't make seriously. Forget the SET or properties, exporting companies since 2006 have been booming exponentially. It's not something you see in News or the Bangkok Post but that you see as a direct investor or when you meet CEOs and CFOs to discuss their operations future. It has never been better for them, until the flood that is. Things might never be the same now, and most are afraid of another political fallout with silly Thaksin.

  4. #3954
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    Look at other Asian countries that have a democracy in name with "legitimate" governments headed by parties with virtually no viable political opposition. The fact that the political system didn't really function legitimately was no bar to at least an initial long period of economic prosperity. This is because those countries also instituted a ministerial system that was headed by at least nominally competent technocrats, which is the realm (i.e., the professional as opposed to the representative wing of government) where the intellectual "elites" from the best schools in those countries in those countries head after graduation. Thailand hasn't managed to create either the competent technocrat wing of government or the educational/research infrastructure that supports it. The reasons why it hasn't should be obvious. Thailand's economic success will remain limited, unbalanced (in terms of wealth distribution) and for the most part superficial and lacking a solid foundation until this issue is addressed, and it won't be because the country is run by aristocrats and asset farmers who don't really give a damn.
    “You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her think.” Dorothy Parker

  5. #3955
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    Quote Originally Posted by robuzo
    The reasons why it hasn't should be obvious. Thailand's economic success will remain limited, unbalanced (in terms of wealth distribution) and for the most part superficial and lacking a solid foundation until this issue is addressed,
    not entirely correct, it's actually a strength for some of these failures you describe, it's definitely not superficial, but yes very unbalanced, which is good when you are all about greed. The ministry void create opportunities for Thai businesses to get away with many things and grow exponentially. In a typical Asian "planned" economy, like Sing or even Malaysia, the governing technocrats would put a stop to such practice and businesses would suffer, but society would benefit.

    A typical example is the minimum wage. Should have happened progressively years ago, but not here. Now we have this silly adjustment that is going to fuck everybody even though the increase is legitimate and necessary.

    so to answer your question or you weak link, economic prosperity is directly linked to a laissez faire approach to the economy, a void in technocrats and capable ministries, not the other way around. This often leads to catastrophic consequences for society though, with soaring social costs, but who cares since we are focusing here on the argument of economic prosperity which is in majority driven by private businesses, not government.

  6. #3956
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    Taksin says “NO” to any prosecution of the people that murdered pro-democracy demonstrators.

    In an interview with Jom Petpradab in Cambodia on 17th April, Taksin Shinawat confirmed that “reconciliation” means that “those who killed 91 people do not have to go to jail”. You can see him saying this in the 7th minute of the video below.



    It looks like a deal has been struck

  7. #3957
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    indeed, but nobody believes he will hold his word, so killing him might be the only option for the military eventually

  8. #3958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaramanga View Post
    T

    It looks like a deal has been struck
    Wow, you're quick.

    You appear to have only just realised this.

  9. #3959
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    SD you are an Idiot

    I knew about the speculation but there was no concrete evidence

  10. #3960
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    As I've said for years, Squareface would make a swell martyr. Nothing washes away sins like dying for the cause. Go ahead, Ocha-chan, make my day.

  11. #3961
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaramanga View Post
    SD you are an Idiot

    I knew about the speculation but there was no concrete evidence
    Ah, so Thaksin saying something is "concrete evidence"?



    For real?

    But when other people say it...it isn't concrete....?

  12. #3962
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    As I said SD, you are an Idiot, and I bet you cant understand a word he says

  13. #3963
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    Scaramanga losing it

  14. #3964
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scaramanga
    and I bet you cant understand a word he says
    because his command of english is atrocious

  15. #3965
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    Khun Taksin is correct to say no jail for the perpitrators of the dispicable crime of slaying 90 innocent protestors with sniper head shots.

    Capital punishment, but I would give them the option of life in the hilton, with a quota of 10 bummings a day.

    You can't argue with that

  16. #3966
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    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Scaramanga
    and I bet you cant understand a word he says
    because his command of english is atrocious
    Doesn't stop him trying to speak it, though. I don't think he insists on speaking in English with foreign journos, etc., out of a sense of pride, nor because he is unaware; rather, I think it could be the opposite. I think it could stem from his warped (from a Western perspective) sense of power- in Asian hierarchies, it is up to the subordinate (from Thaksin's point of view, anyone listening) to try to figure out what the superior is saying, and not the duty of the superior to be clear. The lack of clarity also plays to his advantage because it improves his ability to deny what he said earlier- "Oh, no, you misinterpreted me." In other words, Thaksin's insistence on speaking English is just another little "Fvck you" to anyone trying to call on him to account for himself. He doesn't give a damn if anyone understands him; up to you to try to figure out what he is saying. The structure of the Thai language- like other Asian languages with, for example, forms of speech that depend on one's place in the social hierarchy, looseness with/omission of subjects and subject pronouns- lends itself to opacity, but when those routes to double-talk and prevarication are unavailable gibberish can work just as well as when the goal is opacity.

  17. #3967
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    It's funny to see that Abhisit is against the amnesty and wants a full investigation and then an amnesty eventually, and like certain reds and the victims, he wants to know the truth and wants the full investigation to continue first before anything is forgiven.

    but surprise surprise, Thaksin and friends don't want any of that, and just want to go straight to an amnesty without clarification of anything.

    are they afraid of the truth ? of course they are, it would reveal a few embarrassing details, and expose Thaksin as a total liar, something for those who can think independently already know.

  18. #3968
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    Quote Originally Posted by robuzo
    it is up to the subordinate (from Thaksin's point of view, anyone listening) to try to figure out what the superior is saying, and not the duty of the superior to be clear. The lack of clarity also plays to his advantage because it improves his ability to deny what he said earlier- "Oh, no, you misinterpreted me." In other words, Thaksin's insistence on speaking English is just another little "Fvck you" to anyone trying to call on him to account for himself. He doesn't give a damn if anyone understands him; up to you to try to figure out what he is saying.
    indeed, those manipulative hiso like to speak in mysterious ways, it gives them more importance and if they say something stupid, like they usually do, they can always blame the listener for not understanding his superior logic.

    cute little creatures, aren't they ?

  19. #3969
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    Most chess players use their pawns sacrificially as well. Thaksin in doesn't give a shit about those who died, after all they served his purpose and played their parts in his play oh so well. From pawn to bargaining chip.

  20. #3970
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    ^ it has been obvious for quite a few, and after all this is politics, so to be expected

    not sure why the pawns were so gullible in the first place,

    oh wait, that's because they were never interested in politics in the first place, got drawn into it, played, sacrificed and now what ?

    low turnout in election might be the next thing as they start to realize their real fate or their real role.

    Indeed, Bangkok politics was never for them.

  21. #3971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    low turnout in election might be the next thing
    Your clamouring fervour is pathetic to behold.

  22. #3972
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    ^ you want to bet ?

    would put your whole "democracy" delusional logic into question, wouldn't it ?

  23. #3973
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    You want to lose another bet? One born every minute.

  24. #3974
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    ^ another ? How many have I done on that topic ?

    delusional reds and peasants is a good thing, they will either get smarter from it, or go back to sleep. Either way, a good outcome.

  25. #3975
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    The Recent bi election staggered to a pathetic 35% turnout.....

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