Americans and their guns...the right to kill.

**attaboy** · 03-10-2006, 02:29 PM

I think people believe that crimes of passion would not lead to murder if the gun was not available. Maybe so but then people could very well use another weapon. The statistics for Russian under Soviet rule with its strict gun control still outdistanced the US for murders.

The article I posted adresses the social aspect.

Do Guns Cause Crime?

**ChiangMai noon** · 03-10-2006, 02:30 PM

^^
nothing misleading about those stats.
note the enormous difference between the top 3 to fourth place.

We live in one of the most dangerous countries in the world.

**man with no head** · 03-10-2006, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

Then how do you explain Switzerland with a higher rate of gun ownership than even the U.S. but lower murder rates involving firearms?
.....

For one, Switzerland is different from the US.
One important difference is that they have national service, where young people are trained how to handle guns responsibly, and there are restrictions on carrying guns.

If there is a high occurence of deaths involving firearms, a sensible answer might just be to restrict ownership, regardless of statistics in the UK or elsewhere.

The "risk viewpoint" is sidestepping the issue, motorvehicles are an essential part of modern life - they're used for transport.
Guns are designed to wound and kill, they are offensive weapons and unnecessary in civil life - that's my opinion, of course, we might just have to disagree on this.

Out of 200,000,000 firearms some 11,000 are used to kill each year. Out of 243,000,000 vehicles in the United States between 40,000-50,000 people die. So the overall risk of being killed by a random 'accident' is higher than being killed by a random shooting. It is indeed a legitimate consideration. The difference being that we excuse deaths in motor vehicles as 'accidents' because it alleviates any personal responsibility for the deaths. In almost all cases the driver broke a law which directly resulted in the 'accident' such as speeding, going through a stop sign without stopping, failiure to maintain tires, etc. But where's the outrage over that? There isn't any. One has to seriously fuck up before felony charges get filed (usually involving drugs or alcohol). If the idea is to save lives then surely banning motor vehicles will save even more (not to mention the 500,000 people per year seriously injured but not killed by motor vehicles).

You also forget the other 30% of murders that don't involve firearms. If you magically sweep every gun under the rug not only have you failed to solve the real issue (desire to kill) but do you really think that other 30% won't increase? If a person has a strong enough desire to kill banning guns won't stop them.

Regarding Switzerland the reason why gun crime is low is because of respect for weapons, the closer knit communities with less mobility, and policies which encourage lower crime overall (weak central government and more power on the local level, for example).

You also forget about legitimate uses for firearms such as sport shooting, hunting, etc.

Get rid of the handguns and you'll go a long way to solving the problem. You don't need to ban all weapons.

**ChiangMai noon** · 03-10-2006, 02:37 PM

the stats come from here by the way.

NationMaster - Statistics > Murders with firearms (per capita) by country

Just look at the bar charts if you want to see how dangerous this place is.

**man with no head** · 03-10-2006, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

^^
nothing misleading about those stats.
note the enormous difference between the top 3 to fourth place.

We live in one of the most dangerous countries in the world.

Notice also that Venezuela and Jamaica top the US in murders per capita yet their murders per capita involving firearms is lower. Meaning? People will still find a way to kill even if guns aren't present.

**ChiangMai noon** · 03-10-2006, 02:40 PM

I'm still intrigued by how high Thailand's murder rate is.
Seems to be a bit of an anomaly.
They all seem to be so utterly pleasant until their girlfriend wants to leave them or they've had a few too many.

**Little Chuchok** · 03-10-2006, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by surasak

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

^^
nothing misleading about those stats.
note the enormous difference between the top 3 to fourth place.

We live in one of the most dangerous countries in the world.

Notice also that Venezuela and Jamaica top the US in murders per capita yet their murders per capita involving firearms is lower. Meaning? People will still find a way to kill even if guns aren't present.

It might just have a little bit to do with poverty and being thirld world countries as well....

**man with no head** · 03-10-2006, 02:41 PM

I think Thailand has a high rate of violent penis amputation as well.

**ChiangMai noon** · 03-10-2006, 02:42 PM

Notice also that Venezuela and Jamaica top the US in murders per capita yet their murders per capita involving firearms is lower.

Meaning I suppose that we oughtn't bother making it more difficult for people.
It might be the case that someone whio is willing to pull a trigger might get a little queazy at a hands on method like strangulation.

**man with no head** · 03-10-2006, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

Originally Posted by surasak

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

^^
nothing misleading about those stats.
note the enormous difference between the top 3 to fourth place.

We live in one of the most dangerous countries in the world.

Notice also that Venezuela and Jamaica top the US in murders per capita yet their murders per capita involving firearms is lower. Meaning? People will still find a way to kill even if guns aren't present.

It might just have a little bit to do with poverty and being thirld world countries as well....

I guess the bigger question is that if they aren't using guns to kill each other then what are they using that gives them a higher murder rate than the U.S. with all its weapons? And would the murder rate be higher still if they had the rate of gun ownership of the U.S. or Switzerland?

**Little Chuchok** · 03-10-2006, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

I'm still intrigued by how high Thailand's murder rate is.
Seems to be a bit mof an anomaly.
They all seem to be so utterly pleasant until their girlfriend wants to leave them or they've had a few too many.

That's where stats are misleading.The problem here is that guns are very acessable to the Thai pop.So many people in the provinces own them.Mix that with grog,drugs,crime and a certain mentality etc...you have a recipe for disaster.

**man with no head** · 03-10-2006, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Notice also that Venezuela and Jamaica top the US in murders per capita yet their murders per capita involving firearms is lower.

Meaning I suppose that we oughtn't bother making it more difficult for people.
It might be the case that someone whio is willing to pull a trigger might get a little queazy at a hands on method like strangulation.

Eliminating every gun in the United States still leaves about 5,000 murders taking place using other weapons. Who knows how many of the 10,000 killed by guns would die (or not die) from other means? It's not a simple answer until the causes are dealt with regarding why one person wants to kill another.

**ChiangMai noon** · 03-10-2006, 02:51 PM

^
why do so many Americans want to kill one another.
Does it stem from history, culture or pure dumb frustration?

**man with no head** · 03-10-2006, 02:56 PM

Because American = mixture of every culture on Earth living in one nation.

The nations of the world don't get along, so, why should 300,000,000 of them living within the confines of one nation?

**RandomChances** · 03-10-2006, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

why do so many Americans want to kill one another.

Its not just Americans, other races want to kill them as well

**ChiangMai noon** · 03-10-2006, 02:58 PM

^^
so don't let them have guns to shoot eachother with.

**Little Chuchok** · 03-10-2006, 03:02 PM

^ Too easy.

**man with no head** · 03-10-2006, 03:02 PM

Like I said, nearly 5,000 murders take place without the use of guns. What then? Ban knives?

Take the UK's population of 60,000,000 and mutiply times 5. That gives you about 3,000 murders on the equivalent of population with the U.S. Without a single gun related murder the U.S. murder total would still be higher.

**Marmite the Dog** · 03-10-2006, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

interesting that thailand is number 3 in the world when it comes to death by firearm, behind champions South Africa and silver medallists Columbia.
America comes in just outside the medals in 4th place.

Is that the table of civilised citizens?

Anyway, lots of interesting stuff in this thread, but it seems to me that Americans aren't educated enough to warrant them having the right to bear arms.

The Swiss seem to be fine though.

**in4zip** · 03-10-2006, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

I agree with a lot of what you post surasak, but that line of reason is totally fatuous. Where is the call to ban cigarettes, high fat food, alcohol.

also statistics show that fallin coconuts kill more people than sharks do

regretfully the land of plenty where the buffalo roam is moraly in a twist;
the news says that the guy that did in those amish girls did it just because
he did not like girls (the killer seems to have left some notes behind before he offed himself)

sad to say, but the seppo society is sick, and will take generations, if ever, to regain an even keel again

**ChiangMai noon** · 03-10-2006, 03:10 PM

Like I said, nearly 5,000 murders take place without the use of guns. What then? Ban knives?

Take the UK's population of 60,000,000 and mutiply times 5. That gives you about 3,000 murders on the equivalent of population with the U.S. Without a single gun related murder the U.S. murder total would still be higher.

Pure speculation based on bugger all.

the news says that the guy that did in those amish girls did it just because
he did not like girls

but how threatening would he have been in a school full of people without a gun?
The Americans make it far too easy for the loonies to commit murder.

**man with no head** · 03-10-2006, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Like I said, nearly 5,000 murders take place without the use of guns. What then? Ban knives?

Take the UK's population of 60,000,000 and mutiply times 5. That gives you about 3,000 murders on the equivalent of population with the U.S. Without a single gun related murder the U.S. murder total would still be higher.

Pure speculation based on bugger all.

What speculation? The number of murders is known and the number of murders regarding the use of firearms is known. Subtract the murders caused by firearms and on the basis of population the U.S. still has an almost double murder rate than that of the UK (5000 per year versus 3000 per year). So, what causes that?

Tim McVeigh killed alot of peolpe and never fired a shot.

**ChiangMai noon** · 03-10-2006, 03:24 PM

Tim McVeigh killed alot of peolpe and never fired a shot.

Yeah right.
And he had never been in contact with guns before.

I still don't get your defence of the issue.
Why do you so passionately and desperately cling on to very tenuous reasons for wanting to own them?

Al I'm getting from this is that a ban on guns wouldn't be worth it because we'd syill kill eachother.
is that good enough reson?
Or does the feeling of a gun in the hand make one erect.
Now that would be a good reason.

**Little Chuchok** · 03-10-2006, 03:27 PM

^ 'cause it's in the constitution.

**man with no head** · 03-10-2006, 03:28 PM

Because I am a responsible owner. I keep mine locked up unless I'm going out shooting for the weekend and I never leave them unattended. I shouldn't be punished because someone else misuses them any more than my vehicle should be impounded because someone else wastes gasoline.

You need to seach for the reason why people want to kill people because even if you took my guns away peolpe are still going to do it. You don't solve the murder problem by taking away priviledges from responsible people. Going after weapons is a scapegoat for failure to solve the social issues which lead to people wanting to kill others.

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