Thread: Is the Middle Class Decline Permanent?

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Originally Posted by blackgang

Right, I did that for a few years long towards the end of my drinking days, 1977 to 1984,, I would sign a W-2 as single and 0 deprndants, then after I had paid in $5,000 to income tax, I figured that I would make $50,000 and that would be 10%, so then I would file another W-2 for EXEMPT. and not even file a 1040 at years end. This went on a few years, and of coarse I always went over my target of 50K, but so what, I had paid some.

Then even after I got sober I kept on doing it as the IRS had special investigators looking for my ass, and on the dredge at Salt Lake I was working 7-12's so was very easy to take home 3k a week, while the guys was taking home $700 after taxes, they had the co. change my W-2 and then it was late in the year so I let it go and I took home 38% and the tax took 62% of my gross.

So anyway I had nothing in my name and decided to get legal, so I got a lawyer, he recommended a CPA to do my back taxes, I filed them and then I was legal but did owe back taxes which is no biggie because I had nothing they could take and they had to catch me to grab my wages, this went on for the required 2 years and then I filed bankruptsy for $287K in back taxes and penalties, and walked away with my hands in my pockets.

Moron.

I disagree.

I say, good on you Blackgang. You worked hard. It's your money. If you can get around the pricks, any way you can, I say "go for it."

Originally Posted by Milkman

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

"Som nam nah", I say -- the general apathy by the middle class, mixed with an unwillingness to adopt a long-term outlook, and an equal unwillingness to stand up for themselves, resulted in them contributing to their own decline.

No sympathies.

I agree with you DaffyDuck.

I think it's human nature. I have been following the topic of the declining middle class (casually) since Uni, about 20 years ago. Elizabeth Warren can be youtubed as well, as she's been studying this for decades.

Yes, the middl-class have been asleep. And they have contributed to their own decline because they focused on priorities that didn't represent them.

But....did the middlc-class have a choice? Politically? Could they have changed the "system?" The way things have been set up? Even locally, I think it would have been difficult.

Note, I'm using the past tense.

One of the articles linked above mentions that certain "working class" groups used to be considered or at least considered themselves "middle class". There were, and still are in much smaller numbers, many, mainly male, factory and industrial "workers" who earned incomes that put them in the "middle class" .

They used to vote, overwhelmingly, for the Democrats; then came Reagan and the new Republican party and the drive to alienate these "boys" from the Dems. They succeeded, mainly through appeals to racism, sexism, homophobia and mindless Great Nation patriotism.

And now, their numbers decimated, these 'good ol' boys' have been forced out of the middle classes by the people they voted for. Som nam na, indeed.

Large segments of the American voting public have chosen to go to the boards against gays and women and furriners rather than fight for their own economic benefit.

You pays your money and you makes your choice. Too much whining about the declining middle classes fails to take into account the sheer bloody-minded ugliness of the thinking that drove many of these guys to "vote" themselves out of the middle class. They didn't want to be there, so they're not. Too many fags and liberals up there anyway.

Originally Posted by Milkman

I disagree.

I say, good on you Blackgang. You worked hard. It's your money. If you can get around the pricks, any way you can, I say "go for it."

Not calling him a 'moron' for wanting to hang on to his money, but there are far better ways of doing so than burning all bridges and living in the now, and then being lucky enough to have a good attorney to save his bacon (albeit burning his financial history).

In a way, BG illustrated exactly the points we made about the middle class (even though he probably doesn't represent that demographic), of misplaced priorities, too little caring, and then finding themselves up shit creek -- despite his effort at historical revisionism, telling himself that he planned it that way, it's pretty obvious that he was more lucky than smart -- and in the end, not even that lucky, really.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

And now, their numbers decimated, these 'good ol' boys' have been forced out of the middle classes by the people they voted for. Som nam na, indeed.

Large segments of the American voting public have chosen to go to the boards against gays and women and furriners rather than fight for their own economic benefit.

You pays your money and you makes your choice.

Indeed, and in the cases of these demographics (dumb, hick, xenophobic, religious labor class) they indeed deserve to have kicked themselves out of the middle class club -- after all, they didn't belong in the first place.

Originally Posted by Milkman

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Originally Posted by blackgang

Right, I did that for a few years long towards the end of my drinking days, 1977 to 1984,, I would sign a W-2 as single and 0 deprndants, then after I had paid in $5,000 to income tax, I figured that I would make $50,000 and that would be 10%, so then I would file another W-2 for EXEMPT. and not even file a 1040 at years end. This went on a few years, and of coarse I always went over my target of 50K, but so what, I had paid some.

Then even after I got sober I kept on doing it as the IRS had special investigators looking for my ass, and on the dredge at Salt Lake I was working 7-12's so was very easy to take home 3k a week, while the guys was taking home $700 after taxes, they had the co. change my W-2 and then it was late in the year so I let it go and I took home 38% and the tax took 62% of my gross.

So anyway I had nothing in my name and decided to get legal, so I got a lawyer, he recommended a CPA to do my back taxes, I filed them and then I was legal but did owe back taxes which is no biggie because I had nothing they could take and they had to catch me to grab my wages, this went on for the required 2 years and then I filed bankruptsy for $287K in back taxes and penalties, and walked away with my hands in my pockets.

Moron.

I disagree.

I say, good on you Blackgang. You worked hard. It's your money. If you can get around the pricks, any way you can, I say "go for it."

The thing is that the tax component of your income is not "your money".

Dodging your tax obligation and then claiming bankruptcy after you have spent the loot as a way of avoiding payment is nothing more than bludging on your fellow taxpayers whether you agree with the tax system or not. Little better than those overpaid CEOs who are looting the country, all be it quite technically legally. Nothing any person with a social conscience should feel proud of IMHO.

The US political psyche is more to the right than in most developed countries.
The upside to that right wing mindset is that it produces a more competitive and innovative workforce. One of the factors that made the USA a great economic powerhouse. The downside however is that by trimming workers wages, conditions and social benefits to the bone, the benefits of that increased productivity flow on only to the employer. And employers are in business to make money. They too are in competition with other employers and the plight of their workers in tough times is not their concern.

Its not surprising that blue collar workers in the US have suffered a decline in real living standards when they have been brainwashed into adopting political ideals to their own disadvantage such as low pay and low benefits.

As I know someone like Jet or Booners will likely chime in here with examples of how unionized labour is getting more than their fair slice of the pie, I should point out that I dont support a union Mafia either. USA seems to have evolved a workforce that has adopted the very worst aspects of both unions and exploitation of workers. Other more socialist leaning developed countries have evolved more along the middle path with blue collar workers having a greater share of the countries wealth.

I honestly dont think US blue collar workers realize how poorly their pay and conditions are compared to other developed countries. Neither do I think they care since few probably even realize there are other possibilities outside the USA.

The US blue collar worker have been taken for a ride into increasing poverty for sure. But it is a ride they willingly took overwhelmed with patriotic fervor and the belief that the American way was always the best. Its going to be a bit hard to turn it all around now.

Originally Posted by Panda

Its not surprising that blue collar workers in the US have suffered a decline in real living standards when they have been brainwashed into adopting political ideals to their own disadvantage such as low pay and low benefits.

No brainwashing involved.

The day that people like yourself realize this is the day that some kind of alternative politics can begin to take shape.

Until then, you are welcome to your immense sense of moral and intellectual superiority to all and sundry.

That and a few bucks'll getcha a coffee at Starbucks.

Fair Trade, I'd say.

555555555555555
Gosh, Panda is so far left he must be at the top of the commie league in his camp. Make those hard-working creative folks who create businesses and jobs and earn millions from their ideas pay for the Panda minions who just bottom-feed off of them. 5555
What a loser you are, Pandie.
Progressive tax does hinder folks who climb up one rung of the ladder. So, they say, why bother. Really sad.

Originally Posted by Panda

Its not surprising that blue collar workers in the US have suffered a decline in real living standards when they have been brainwashed into adopting political ideals to their own disadvantage such as low pay and low benefits.

Here happens to be the first place you are wrong, not that you are correct in any part of your Anti USA rant.
The unions did what they could until Reagan got in and did his famous union busting thing, and the politicians did their's too by not rewriting the Tax base system.
In 1962 I made over $20K dollars the first time in my working life, $26 to be exact, and I worked 7 days a week and the longest day was 21 1/2 hours, and an average was about 12, and some were 8 hrs.
I did not mind paying taxes and thought anyone who cheated was an asshole, but when the pay scale went from $2.65 an hour to $5.50 because of inflation and our taxes went up 4 notches and went up to double the % and they started taking 30% instead of 5% then it started to hurt, here you were paying what a man in the upper pay brackets used to pay and had barely enough to take home to pay the light bill and buy dog food.
Everyone said that a 10% tax was fair, but the politicians were not satisfied with that so no changing of the tax base, so in later years I paid my 10% and the rich High wage CEO's paid nothing,,,, they could fuk off for the rest.

Originally Posted by Panda

I honestly dont think US blue collar workers realize how poorly their pay and conditions are compared to other developed countries. Neither do I think they care since few probably even realize there are other possibilities outside the USA.

You set in your little corner of the desert and say shit like this, just shows what you do not know.
See that Blue Lipped asshole running around the world in that 740 fucking 7 spending money he ain't got and giving it away by the billions and trillions to everyone he says Hi to.
Thats the reason that there is no more middle class, they have taxed them out of existence and they will never ever be again.
When I bust my hump to make a good living and the govt takes 65% of my gross income and gives it away, I say fuck it, and I retired at 58 years old and took another high tax payer out of the system, a lot of others did too, but not 1 swinging dick came off the welfare dole.
But you Pandy, set there in your little corner and run off at the mouth about shit you have no fucking idea about.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Originally Posted by Panda

Its not surprising that blue collar workers in the US have suffered a decline in real living standards when they have been brainwashed into adopting political ideals to their own disadvantage such as low pay and low benefits.

No brainwashing involved.

The day that people like yourself realize this is the day that some kind of alternative politics can begin to take shape.

Until then, you are welcome to your immense sense of moral and intellectual superiority to all and sundry.

That and a few bucks'll getcha a coffee at Starbucks.



Fair Trade, I'd say.

A fairly typical response from a Yank when national intellectual integrity is challenged.

^Ah, the old content-free "'tude is all"... eighteen much?

Originally Posted by blackgang

Originally Posted by Panda

Its not surprising that blue collar workers in the US have suffered a decline in real living standards when they have been brainwashed into adopting political ideals to their own disadvantage such as low pay and low benefits.

Here happens to be the first place you are wrong, not that you are correct in any part of your Anti USA rant.
The unions did what they could until Reagan got in and did his famous union busting thing, and the politicians did their's too by not rewriting the Tax base system.
In 1962 I made over $20K dollars the first time in my working life, $26 to be exact, and I worked 7 days a week and the longest day was 21 1/2 hours, and an average was about 12, and some were 8 hrs.
I did not mind paying taxes and thought anyone who cheated was an asshole, but when the pay scale went from $2.65 an hour to $5.50 because of inflation and our taxes went up 4 notches and went up to double the % and they started taking 30% instead of 5% then it started to hurt, here you were paying what a man in the upper pay brackets used to pay and had barely enough to take home to pay the light bill and buy dog food.
Everyone said that a 10% tax was fair, but the politicians were not satisfied with that so no changing of the tax base, so in later years I paid my 10% and the rich High wage CEO's paid nothing,,,, they could fuk off for the rest.

.

Its called "bracket creep". In other countries people complain to their politicians about it. Cheating on your taxes and then crying bankrupt after you have spent all the loot is simply bludging on your fellow workers who pay their fair share.
Just and excuse for being a parasite on your fellow countrymen.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

555555555555555
Make those hard-working creative folks who create businesses and jobs and earn millions from their ideas pay for the Panda minions who just bottom-feed off of them. 5555
.

Those "bottom feeders" as you call them Jet happen to be hard working men and women (ironically like your pal BG used to be) who have been screwed by a system that has moved too far to the right. Declining real wages and benefits have moved a lot of people down the socio-economic ladder while the top end wealthy get vastly richer.

In a democracy the aim is to find a balance between slavery/exploitation and capitalistic free enterprise. The outcome for USA depicted in the opening post shows that USA has got the balance out of whack.

The wealth of a country should not be measured by how many billionaires they have or "average" income, but what quality of life the government can provide for its citizens. And clearly that quality of life is shrinking for the majority of US blue collar workers.

Originally Posted by Panda

Its called "bracket creep". In other countries people complain to their politicians about it. Cheating on your taxes and then crying bankrupt after you have spent all the loot is simply bludging on your fellow workers who pay their fair share. Just and excuse for being a parasite on your fellow countrymen.

Jesus H. Christ, how many people are screaming about high taxes for the working stiffs do you suppose there are, and do you think they are listening to them??
Thats what I said, you are just blabbering on something you know nothing about, look at the Tax Revolts in the USA, what in the fuck do you think they are about, and how are you going to vote out a politician when you have all them coons on welfare and voting Demo when they out number the working people regardless of color.
The only way you can do it just to actually revolt and take your chances, I did everything legal once my taxes were filed, thats the only law I broke, and I did not cry, I filed bankruptcy and the judge OK it, and I did not piss off the 1/4 million dollars, I am retired and do not worry about it, but I think it is better for me to earn it and then keep it instead of give it to politician who will give it to a nigger on welfare who will not work.

Originally Posted by Panda

The wealth of a country should not be measured by how many billionaires they have or "average" income, but what quality of life the government can provide for its citizens. And clearly that quality of life is shrinking for the majority of US blue collar workers.

You are some right there Pandy, but it is not the govt that is supposed to provide for the quality of life, but it is up to the individual to do that.
When it is up to the govt to do it then they Tax the piss out of the middle class and give it away to those that will not work, and that is exactly what the govt in the USA is doing now and has for the last 70 years on a progressively increasing scale each year.

Originally Posted by blackgang

The only way you can do it just to actually revolt and take your chances, I did everything legal once my taxes were filed, thats the only law I broke, and I did not cry, I filed bankruptcy and the judge OK it, and I did not piss off the 1/4 million dollars, I am retired and do not worry about it, but I think it is better for me to earn it and then keep it instead of give it to politician who will give it to a nigger on welfare who will not work.

The thing is BG, is that it was NOT your money in the first place to decide how it would be spent. You enjoyed the benefits of living in a country that had infrastructure, social, economic and physical, built up over generations by people paying their fair share of taxes to a government to which they entrusted the application of those funds. Your failure to pay your fair share of taxes and instead choosing to bludge on not only your fellow countrymen, but all those honest hardworking people who had gone before in previous generations shows you to be a very selfish and greedy individual.

If you felt so strongly about the disbursement of your taxes (which you didn't pay anyway), why then didn't you renounce your citizenship and move to another country? Of course the quite obvious reason is that you were taking all the advantages of your US citizenship while ripping off the system and bludging on your fellow countrymen who did pay their fair share of tax. You can try and justify it any way you like, but the bottom line is that you are a parasite on your own countrymen.

Plenty of people in all different countries dont agree with the way their government sends their tax money. They make their vote on election day and take it on the chin if things dont pan out the way they want. Its called democracy.

You are nothing but a selfish tax cheating bludger trying to justify your selfish parasitic greed by claiming not to agree with the policies of the democratically elected government of your own country. Sorry to hear you got away with a quarter of a million $s through a legal loophole and a smart lawyer. In the end, a lot of honest people had to make up for your personal gain. It beats me how people like you can feel so proud of being a cheat and a parasite. Must be an American thing.

Originally Posted by Panda

Sorry to hear you got away with a quarter of a million $s through a legal loophole and a smart lawyer.

Lawyer had nothing to do with it except to line me up with a CPA to do my taxes, never cost me anything for the lawyer, and not a loop hole, it is all written in the laws if you care to look it up.
Did you ever see a politico give back monwey once in his hand.
I see why you feel the way you do after taking such a fucking from the govt that you have, and you have not got the guts to leave there as all those Aussies that are strung out around the world makin it in other countrys.
Fact all you have the guts to do is sneak off and buy some pussy to take home to a strange country, fuck of a fine hand you are,oh yes and set behind your keyboard and mean mouth other folks for being smarter than you..

Pretty piss poor come back there old fella.

You got away with a quarter of a million $s in unpaid tax by claiming to be bankrupt. Then you retired at 58 while the rest of your peers slugged it out paying their fair share. You must feel really proud of yourself.

Originally Posted by Panda

while the rest of your peers slugged it out paying their fair share. You must feel really proud of yourself.

Yes I do, and so do my peers that did what I did., the rest of my peers that had enough time in the unions to vest went out just like I did and gave the few jobs available to those members that still had a family to raise and support, We didn't stay at the trough til we were old enough for SSA to do what we did. Unlike you, we were able to afford early retirement.

Originally Posted by blackgang

Originally Posted by Panda

while the rest of your peers slugged it out paying their fair share. You must feel really proud of yourself.

Yes I do, and so do my peers that did what I did., the rest of my peers that had enough time in the unions to vest went out just like I did and gave the few jobs available to those members that still had a family to raise and support, We didn't stay at the trough til we were old enough for SSA to do what we did. Unlike you, we were able to afford early retirement.

Oh wow! Now the tax cheat who has ripped off his country and fellow taxpayers for a quarter of a million $s ( in that days money) is claiming to be the benevolent one removing his snout in the trough through early retirement to allow fellow union members to get their share.
Where is Jet when you need her?

A cheat, a parasite and a thief is always a cheat a parasite and a thief BG.
May you live long and prosper on the backs of the labour of your more honest countrymen.

Originally Posted by Panda

A cheat, a parasite and a thief is always a cheat a parasite and a thief BG. May you live long and prosper on the backs of the labour of your more honest countrymen.

AW come on Pandy, you are just jealous aint ya, no body ever thought enough of you to let you in line ahead of them,, damn dirty shame to be in your shoes ain't it?

Sad you think its smart to be a parasite and a cheat.
May you live long and prosper on the backs of your own countrymans honest labour.

Originally Posted by Panda

May you live long and prosper on the backs of your own countrymans honest labour

I intend to Pandy, why don't you go over there and see just how a real govt works, not the convict kind but a real free society.

Is that the best you can do Pandy?

[quote=Panda;1254612]

Originally Posted by Milkman

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Originally Posted by blackgang

Right, I did that for a few years long towards the end of my drinking days, 1977 to 1984,, I would sign a W-2 as single and 0 deprndants, then after I had paid in $5,000 to income tax, I figured that I would make $50,000 and that would be 10%, so then I would file another W-2 for EXEMPT. and not even file a 1040 at years end. This went on a few years, and of coarse I always went over my target of 50K, but so what, I had paid some.

Then even after I got sober I kept on doing it as the IRS had special investigators looking for my ass, and on the dredge at Salt Lake I was working 7-12's so was very easy to take home 3k a week, while the guys was taking home $700 after taxes, they had the co. change my W-2 and then it was late in the year so I let it go and I took home 38% and the tax took 62% of my gross.

So anyway I had nothing in my name and decided to get legal, so I got a lawyer, he recommended a CPA to do my back taxes, I filed them and then I was legal but did owe back taxes which is no biggie because I had nothing they could take and they had to catch me to grab my wages, this went on for the required 2 years and then I filed bankruptsy for $287K in back taxes and penalties, and walked away with my hands in my pockets.

Moron.

I disagree.

I say, good on you Blackgang. You worked hard. It's your money. If you can get around the pricks, any way you can, I say "go for it."

The thing is that the tax component of your income is not "your money".

It IS, his money: who decides how much to take?

Who to give his money, to?

What to give it to?

Wars? Zionism? Corruption? Military Industial-Complex.

Dodging your tax obligation and then claiming bankruptcy after you have spent the loot as a way of avoiding payment is nothing more than bludging on your fellow taxpayers whether you agree with the tax system or not. Little better than those overpaid CEOs who are looting the country, all be it quite technically legally. Nothing any person with a social conscience should feel proud of IMHO.

I disagree. If anyone can stop paying, I hope they do.

Pay nothing. I have NOT paid a thing in 8 years, and I want it to continue.