Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 100
  1. #26
    Not a Mod. Begbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Lagrangian Point
    Posts
    11,367
    I suspect that those who are praising Margeret Thatcher didn't have the "privilage" of living through the worst years of her malicious rule. It's hardly surprising that the British economy has done reasonably well since then. If you tear something down to the foundations the only wayto go is up. What hasn't recovered is the manufacturing sector which she destroyed. I don't know enough to speculate as to whether the rates of drug abuse and crime which she fostered have returned to "normal" levels.

    State funeral ? more like a party.

  2. #27
    punk douche bag
    ChiangMai noon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    o dan y bryn
    Posts
    29,256
    I agree begbie.
    Certainly South Wales has never recovered from the battering she took at nthe hands of the awful baronness.

  3. #28
    I'm in Jail
    Butterfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    12-06-2021 @ 11:13 PM
    Posts
    39,832
    ^ I don't see how the destruction of the welfare state is regarded as a success. It was after all providing us with great social benefits. If you stop paying your vendors and scrap for every penny your clients, your business on the B/S and I/S wouldn't look bad either, but it doesn't mean your business is in a better shape. She probably accelerated the damages to be done, it would have happened anyway because of Globalization. She just made the slow death of the manufacturing industry less painful by killing them off quickly. That's probably the only thing she really achieved.

    How come socialist countries like Sweden didn't have an Iron Lady and survived ? is England better off than Sweden ? I mean it's not like England is an empire anymore. More like a regular country. Not to mention she gave away HK to the Chinese, the fucking bitch.

  4. #29
    I am in Jail
    stroller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    12-03-2019 @ 09:53 AM
    Location
    out of range
    Posts
    23,025
    I think Britain is a 'special' case, there are a number of things to consider:
    In terms of modern amenities, Britain was the most advanced early 20th century, but has lagged behind with upgrading and renewing. The same might be said about some branches of the manufacturing sector, an example from personal experience is the textile industry which collapsed in the 70s.
    Britain has also been at the forefront of social developments and public services during much of the 20th century, a lot of which has been dismantled and sold of, a legacy of Thatcher and conservative rule. The backlash of selling off council property for example is felt now.
    Sorry, I'm (slightly) digressing.

    The "welfare state" has reached its limits, not only in the UK, but amongst most Western nations. The most important reason for this are demographics, an aging and shrinking population. With the advances in medicine and the care available, people live longer. At the same time, birthrates have decreased, so less people of working age.

    There are other factors, the discrepency between 1st world and developing countries and globalisation has reversed the trend of income and opportunities leveling out in the industrialised nations and is one of the causes of unemployment and loss of tax revenue from production and trade.

  5. #30
    Dis-member
    Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Last Online
    18-03-2024 @ 07:17 AM
    Location
    Head Rock
    Posts
    3,507
    Lots of room to comment here and none of it about the OP GWB.

    Butterfly: The welfare state in the UK is thriving.

    My take on Thatcher is that her 'achievement' was to break the power of the unions which she was able to achieve by using the revenue from North Sea oil to dismantle what were moribund manaufacturing industries.

    We can argue whether that was a good thing or not but I feel that one of the side effects was to create a culture of state dependency that still exists and is going to be hard to break.

    HK was leased from the Chinese government and hanging onto it was not an option.

    Britain has a , IMHO, unique class system. My perception of living through the sixties and seventies was that the working/union classs was in an undeclared war with the upper/managerieal class. I do not believe that other European countries share that 'them and us' philosophy to anything like the same degree.

    Other comments:

    The two party political system and polarisation of thinking has meant that manufacturers were relucatant to invest private money in industries that were likely to be nationalised at the next change of government. Mrs T's possibly biggest contributoin to British society was to privatise state assets in a way that made re-nationalisation politically impossible.

    Whoop's it's lunch time here - over to someone else.
    Lord, deliver us from e-mail.

  6. #31
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Begbie
    I suspect that those who are praising Margeret Thatcher didn't have the "privilage" of living through the worst years of her malicious rule.
    Yes. I lived through the boom years in the 80s. It was a great feeling after the doldrums of Socialist mis-governance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
    Certainly South Wales has never recovered from the battering she took at nthe hands of the awful baronness.
    Many UK industries were not fit enough to survive. Coal mining was just one of them. Why should other tax payers support failing industries. Sadly, it still happens to some extent with the farming industry, but it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be, and much of that is the fault of the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    How come socialist countries like Sweden didn't have an Iron Lady and survived ? is England better off than Sweden ? I mean it's not like England is an empire anymore. More like a regular country. Not to mention she gave away HK to the Chinese, the fucking bitch.
    And how much tax do the Swedes pay? And I presume you know jack shit about the HK situation too. No surprise there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    HK was leased from the Chinese government and hanging onto it was not an option.
    Only the New Territories, actually. But it followed UK foreign policy to let the natives fuck their own countries up, rather than have good colonial rule.

    Otherwise, I agree Dougal. It's just the lefties hate to admit that socialism doesn't work. Hell, even New Labour is blue. The only difference is that Blair hasn't actually contributed much over the last 8 years. Just broken most of his promises and increased bureaucracy.

  7. #32
    punk douche bag
    ChiangMai noon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    o dan y bryn
    Posts
    29,256
    Many UK industries were not fit enough to survive. Coal mining was just one of them. Why should other tax payers support failing industries. Sadly, it still happens to some extent with the farming industry, but it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be, and much of that is the fault of the EU.
    it was an awful time to go through.
    my family was not a mining family but lots of my friends were.
    I saw whole villages closing.
    Established shops that had no one to serve anymore, families breaking down.
    You could never convince me that what she did was right.

  8. #33
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,827
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon
    Many UK industries were not fit enough to survive. Coal mining was just one of them. Why should other tax payers support failing industries. Sadly, it still happens to some extent with the farming industry, but it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be, and much of that is the fault of the EU.
    it was an awful time to go through.
    my family was not a mining family but lots of my friends were.
    I saw whole villages closing.
    Established shops that had no one to serve anymore, families breaking down.
    You could never convince me that what she did was right.
    I know what you're saying, but it had to be done.

  9. #34
    I am in Jail
    stroller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    12-03-2019 @ 09:53 AM
    Location
    out of range
    Posts
    23,025
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
    It's just the lefties hate to admit that socialism doesn't work.
    Who says it doesn't work? Are SK and yourself the authorities on this? - I think not.
    Hell, even New Labour is blue. The only difference is that Blair hasn't actually contributed much over the last 8 years. Just broken most of his promises and increased bureaucracy.
    Gotta agree here. Liar Blair isn't much better than Thatcher. But at least he doesn't sell off public property.
    Time for socialists to get their act together and recapture Labour.

  10. #35
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,827
    Quote Originally Posted by stroller
    Who says it doesn't work? Are SK and yourself the authorities on this? - I think not.
    I am actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by stroller
    But at least he doesn't sell off public property. Time for socialists to get their act together and recapture Labour.
    Luckily, Maggie had the sense to do so. Otherwise it would be yet another out-of-date industry crumbling from lack of investment and development. Industries need to have competition to survive and thrive - economics 101.

  11. #36
    I am in Jail
    stroller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    12-03-2019 @ 09:53 AM
    Location
    out of range
    Posts
    23,025
    How many railways do you want to run between Kings Cross and Manchester?
    Ever heard of a concept called "public service", Marmite.

    Yeah, Virgin have done a really good job there...

  12. #37
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,827
    Quote Originally Posted by stroller
    How many railways do you want to run between Kings Cross and Manchester?
    Ever heard of a concept called "public service", Marmite.

    Yeah, Virgin have done a really good job there...
    The main problem with the railways in the UK is that although the private sector has invested a lot of money in the railways (over 3 billion GBP), the infrastructure was neglected during the previous however many years. Therefore a lot more money needs to be spent on it as it is still not good enough to cope with the extra trains and passengers since 1996 when privatisation took place.

    The government should help Railtrack (the company whose job it is to look after the network) and perhaps there should be tighter controls on the number of trains running.

    But the railways are just one of many privatised industries. It always takes time to shake of the bad practices that socialism afflicts businesses with. Generally speaking privatisation has been an overwhelming success.

  13. #38
    Dis-member
    Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Last Online
    18-03-2024 @ 07:17 AM
    Location
    Head Rock
    Posts
    3,507
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
    the infrastructure was neglected during the previous however many years.
    I think that was an example where the see saw of alternative Labour and Conservative governments could not decide what they wanted to do - and in the event did nothing much. In some areas the surface rail service has improved but in other areas such as track maintenance it seems that there have been compromises on safety for the sake of profit.

    I am not a transport consultant but I believe that other European countries have excellent state run rail systems - why not the UK?

    Mrs T was right to divest the country of lame duck industries but there is a limit to what she should have been allowed to flog. For example BT seems to have improved enormously as a privatised utility but water seems not have worked well at all (possibly because there is no national water grid in the same way as there is for electricity and gas).

    The UK badly needs an integrated transport policy but I can't see that happening when roads are still government operated (for how much longer I don't know) and rail buses and tube are all in the hands of various other groups.

    Is this still on topic?

  14. #39
    Thailand Expat
    Lady Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Last Online
    08-02-2011 @ 02:29 AM
    Posts
    1,352
    maggie split this country in two,i lived through it and it was bollox.

  15. #40
    Dis-member
    Dougal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Last Online
    18-03-2024 @ 07:17 AM
    Location
    Head Rock
    Posts
    3,507
    ^ She was certainly very divisive (sp?) and I personally detested the way that she carried out what were in many cases very necessary reforms. I sense in her the same traits of arrogance that Mr T seems to display today.

    She was summed up by one of her own MPs when he said - if I remember the phraseology -

    "The trouble with Mrs Thatcher is that she married a millionaire and she can't understand why everyone else doesn't do the same."

    I sense in reading the previous posts that some equate Thatcher with the death of socialism and thus that Conservative government is inherently better. It is well to remember that Conservative prime ministers before and after Mrs T have to a large extent been almost complete tossers from the neck up.
    Last edited by Dougal; 24-06-2006 at 02:19 AM.

  16. #41
    Thailand Expat
    Lady Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Last Online
    08-02-2011 @ 02:29 AM
    Posts
    1,352
    ^ agreed Dougal, i am working class and will always equate myself as so,my parents are middle class and agreed with Thathcher i am afraid to say to there depriment.
    They had there own business which fell,with serious consiqence,trouble is the higher you climb the more you have to loose.
    I prefer to keep my feet on the ground .

  17. #42
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,827
    Quote Originally Posted by changmai
    ^ agreed Dougal, i am working class and will always equate myself as so,my parents are middle class and agreed with Thathcher i am afraid to say to there depriment.
    They had there own business which fell,with serious consiqence,trouble is the higher you climb the more you have to loose.
    I prefer to keep my feet on the ground .
    My family were all working class (you'd never guess though!) and saw the beacon of light that was Maggie Thatcher.

  18. #43
    I'm in Jail
    Butterfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    12-06-2021 @ 11:13 PM
    Posts
    39,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
    And how much tax do the Swedes pay?
    That's the whole point of socialism. It's to maintain a real society with real public services. Do we need anything else as a society ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
    I am actually.
    No you are not. From your arguments, I can tell you know little about socialism and you are only making silly assumptions.

  19. #44
    I'm in Jail
    Butterfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    12-06-2021 @ 11:13 PM
    Posts
    39,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
    Luckily, Maggie had the sense to do so. Otherwise it would be yet another out-of-date industry crumbling from lack of investment and development. Industries need to have competition to survive and thrive - economics 101.
    Sorry to burst your bubble MtD, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Yes privatization is not a bad thing, but privatization of public services is purely "evil" and "dumb". Only a demagogue trying to serve an ideology would go through such a process. That was her. She was an evil bitch and probably the worst that happened to England. Look at France and Germany, and even Spain. Were they worse off or better off than England in the late 80s and early 90s ? they were exactly the same. No economic meltdown as forecasted by the supporters of the Iron lady. She was a destroyer, not a builder. Destroying is easy, fixing and re-building requires skills. She didn't have those skills.

  20. #45
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
    And how much tax do the Swedes pay?
    That's the whole point of socialism. It's to maintain a real society with real public services. Do we need anything else as a society ?
    So how much tax do the Swedes pay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    From your arguments, I can tell you know little about socialism and you are only making silly assumptions.
    Not much gets past you, does it?


  21. #46
    I'm in Jail
    Butterfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    12-06-2021 @ 11:13 PM
    Posts
    39,832
    Forgot to add: it's not all about taxes. That's a red herring. She was a pitbull and knew shit about Macro-economics. Her fiscal incentives only had short term impact but in the long run she has destroyed all the progress that England had achieved. She was a total joke for the rest of Europe. This doesn't mean that Labor back then was doing much or better things, just that she took the opportunity to implement an ideology that later proved to be wrong.

  22. #47
    I'm in Jail
    Butterfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    12-06-2021 @ 11:13 PM
    Posts
    39,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
    So how much tax do the Swedes pay?
    But that's the thing. You are focusing on the tax issues. Irrelevant in a Macro-Economics discussion. You think of Tatcher as a Goddes because she threw around a few fiscal incentives and you think that she cured the country with that alone. It didn't. It was a short term thing. Taxes have a purpose. Saving industries in a society is one of them. Instead of dismantling, she could have fix things.

    Btw, where did they build the QE 2 ? see my point ? you probably won't

  23. #48
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog
    So how much tax do the Swedes pay?
    But that's the thing. You are focusing on the tax issues. Irrelevant in a Macro-Economics discussion. You think of Tatcher as a Goddes because she threw around a few fiscal incentives and you think that she cured the country with that alone. It didn't. It was a short term thing. Taxes have a purpose. Saving industries in a society is one of them. Instead of dismantling, she could have fix things.

    Btw, where did they build the QE 2 ? see my point ? you probably won't
    You're missing the point.

    People in the UK wouldn't put up with paying 70% income tax, so the economy had to be saved in other ways.

    I bed Maggie is a real joke in Europe leaving us a legacy of a strong economy as opposed the rest of Europe. Even New Labour has shown respect for what she did as well as prestty much any economist of note. I'd rather believe what they are saying, as well as my own experiences of actually living in the country to the views of a proven blinkered fool such as yourself.

    The biggest problem with the UK's economy are those socialist fekwits in Europe trying their best to bring the UK down to their level.

    Have a nice day.

  24. #49
    I'm in Jail
    Butterfly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    12-06-2021 @ 11:13 PM
    Posts
    39,832
    ^ silly argument as expected. Nobody wants to bring down the UK to lower than it is already. Like I said, stripping a "civilized" country of his social "achievement" is hardly a success or an achievement. It's more like using a Nuclear Option to kill a few "bugs" and burning yourself in the process.

    The only reason Labor didn't touch anything since they came into office is because they know they are on an economic borderline and don't want to fuckup things more than they are. So what's the next step ? become like China so we can compete with them ? is that all what it is about ? again you have failed to address the issue outside the argument of "taxes". Are you a retired tax accountant ? then you know fuck all about economics. The national books are a little bit more complex than a company I/S and B/S and they don't have the same objective. A society main objective is to "serve" the citizens, not to maximize resources. Until conservatives understand that fundamental principle, they will keep going into circles and argue how the color of a wall in a house is more important than the foundation of a house, missing the point entirely about how a society is to survive and prosper.

  25. #50
    Thailand Expat
    Marmite the Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Last Online
    08-09-2014 @ 10:43 AM
    Location
    Simian Islands
    Posts
    34,827
    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    The only reason Labor didn't touch anything since they came into office is because they know they are on an economic borderline and don't want to fuckup things more than they are.
    The rest of Europe must be in severe dire straits then.

    As I said earlier. New Labour with leave us with a legacy of bureaucracy, but little else.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •