The strongest economy in the world

**DuckSoup** · 27-08-2010, 07:21 AM

Poor Ameicans are going to have a rough ride
This may lead to tension esp over immigrants and housing

**Nice Guy** · 27-08-2010, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

The Dow is below 10,000. There's lots of worry out there still. It's got to be the time to buy into stocks since so many are down to lows they haven't seen for some time. Or this is just the beginning of something worse.

Remember, the DOW and the S & P was at this mark 11 years ago.

Yes, eleven years, ago.

**PaulBunyon** · 27-08-2010, 12:47 PM

So what does that mean exactly? We are eleven years behind? I'm to low tech to figure out the total impact of market numbers. I know its bad but how bad? The real estate market is probably back to eleven years ago. Actually in some places the house prices are back to the 1970s. This talk about destroying houses they can sell is insane to me. I'm almost ready to move back to get a house or condo in one of these areas. I'd guess they will become popular with the increasing number of retirees without any assets to retire. Cheap will be the only choice.

**Norton** · 27-08-2010, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

Cheap will be the only choice.

Of course it will. Housing sales will increase when they reach a level where buyers again can afford to purchase. What that level is can only be speculative but certainly far lower than the bubble prices paid by home owners in the past few years.

Lot's of other factors beyond just housing prices have caused the recession but no question when approximately 20% of a nations GDP is directly or partially dependent on housing the collapse is going to trigger a huge economic downturn.

**Jet Gorgon** · 27-08-2010, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

The Dow is below 10,000.

Soros pulled several billions outta the markets...
George Soros slashes exposure to US equities - Telegraph

Originally Posted by sabang

Whether they will or not is a real question- the GOP, and even some Democrats on the right, actually want to extend, or make permanent, the US tax cuts for the rich.

That ain't the main reason the economy is feked, it's because obama has created such uncertainty. Slap the tax rates back up, and the small biz folks suffer. No company wants to invest or hire now because of obamacare costs, cap'n'tax costs, an anti-biz environment -- WTF is this, any purchase over $600 must be filed to the govt (WTF?), a crapload more of regulations, a financial reform bill that is killing the small and community banks that do the local lending. The People just want obama and his cronies to fek off and let them handle what should be the free markets. Look at the unemployment rate. The dismal housing market. And what's the msm doing? Targetting Toyota for a faulty computer system that's caused three accidents and one minor injury. Yep, get them foreign car companies that hire non-union American workers outta here. Meanwhile, the weather has improved in Martha's Vineyard and bamboo is golfing again.

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

Cheap will be the only choice.

Of course it will. Housing sales will increase when they reach a level where buyers again can afford to purchase. What that level is can only be speculative but certainly far lower than the bubble prices paid by home owners in the past few years.

Lot's of other factors beyond just housing prices have caused the recession but no question when approximately 20% of a nations GDP is directly or partially dependent on housing the collapse is going to trigger a huge economic downturn.

What a load of crock, Norts. The market is feked because the govt stepped in and gave everyone mortgage freebies and discounts. Oh! The market is up!!! As soon as the latest round of welfare freebies expired, the market collapsed AGAIN. Get the govt outta the markets. There is not one person in obama's admin with biz experience. They're all working off of some voodoo socialist textbooks.
Not everyone should own a home. You on welfare your whole life, do you deserve to own your own home?

**Norton** · 27-08-2010, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

What a load of crock, Norts.

Surprised you of all people, being a hard core supporter of free market capitalism, are ignoring the simple fact, price is driven by what the market will bear. When the price is right, people will buy. Coming to the conclusion the post you quoted is "a load of crock" leads me to believe you don't agree with the basic fundamentals of capitalism.

**Panda** · 27-08-2010, 07:08 PM

Trouble with the US economy is that the $US is vastly overvalued on the open market. And this is solely because of its privileged place as the worlds default trading currency. Its led to an overvalued currency as people throughout the world invest in $USs as a safe haven when productive industry take a down turn. The value of the stock market goes down and the $US goes up against other currencies. Its madness really, but there really isn't much else out there to compete with the $US since they have gained a virtual monopoly on the currency of world trade.

But this monopoly or hegemony as it is known has multiple downsides in the long term as we are starting to find out now. The bulk of Americans lived pretty easy on relatitively low wages relying on cheap imports to bolster their living standards through an overvalued currency as their jobs went overseas. The government could simply sell debt overseas instead of funding domestic obligations through taxes.

But now the party is nearly over. Nearly, but not quite just yet. The financial security rug is about to be pulled out from under the American working class peoples feet. The $US hegemony experiment of the past 39 years is coming to an end.

Interest rates near zero and the government printing money like crazy to try and prop up a faltering economy. Record unemployment rates, a negative balance of trade and escalating government debt running out of control. But the $US still remains strong, though in gradual decline. A strength only attained through its dominant hegemony as the worlds default trading currency.

But those heady days of cheap living through an overvalued currency with a very privileged position in the world are coming to an end. Somewhere down the track something will have to replace the $US as the world default trading currency. Otherwise we might just as well start trading real good and services in sea shells or other items as worthless as $US paper money. But the world free market keeps propping up this failed system of $US hegemony in times of decline in real production, simply because there isn't anything else to replace it and preserve the store of wealth. Ironic really, sort of like trading pigs for sea shells because you haven't got enough money to buy food. Its a downward spiral thats got to end sometime. The worlds biggest economic bubble that has to burst with a big bang sooner or later.

The US government has virtually no other option but to inflate thier way out of debt by printing paper money to bring the tradable value of the $US back to somewhere near its true intrinsic value, -- which is probably somewhere near 25 to 30% lower than where it is now. But thats just a guess. It could be a lot lower.
Meanwhile, a panic stricken rest of the world just keeps buying US debt and further propping up an unsustainable financial system. So the US government just keeps printing more paper money and selling it as debt tradable for real goods and services with other countries as long as they are silly enough to accept it.

However, there must come a time when the rest of the world finally wakes up and stops buying US debt which the US simply uses to buy more of their stuff actually produced by productive labour and industry. And of course the US government also uses this "money for nothing" to finance its wars of empire as well as stimulus funding (AKA handouts) to prop up a stagnant domestic economy.

So where is this going to leave the great mass of US working class when the $US finally devalues significantly? Unskilled US workers already have among the lowest incomes of any developed country. They already have among the lowest level of social benefits of any developed country. Productive industry and therefore US jobs have already been shipped off shore. Whats going to happen to these people who make up somewhere around half the population when the $US devalues and the cost of imported items they have relied on to boost their standard of living becomes unaffordable? US industries have been shipped offshore and therefore domestic production wont be able to reestablish and fill the void for years, maybe a decade or more. There will be shortages of cheap products that people can afford like shoes and shirts. The general cost of living will soar, with a substantially lower standard of living for most. Or to put it another way massive inflation.

But thats what the US government is aiming at as its the only way to get the country back into a functioning productive economy again. Not to mention that inflating their way out of debt is the only way USA can ever pay back what they owe to the rest of the world.

A lot of people are going to pay for the excesses of the $US experiment of the past 39 years. Not the least the average working class Americans who believed it was great while it lasted. But not only Americans will end up paying. Virtually every other country around the world that has accumulated $USs as a reserve of wealth, and countries who have shipped real good to the US consumer market in exchange for $USs will find they are worse off.

The biggest bubble in world history is yet to burst.

**Jet Gorgon** · 27-08-2010, 08:59 PM

^ Sure, it has nothing to do with China fekin with the yuan's value or a highly over-rated euro. Look at the baht.

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

What a load of crock, Norts.

Surprised you of all people, being a hard core supporter of free market capitalism, are ignoring the simple fact, price is driven by what the market will bear. When the price is right, people will buy. Coming to the conclusion the post you quoted is "a load of crock" leads me to believe you don't agree with the basic fundamentals of capitalism.

I surely know that, Professor. True, nobody can afford the price, nobody buys and the market corrects itself accordingly. Private biz always recovers when left to itself. They know how to produce or not, how to price, what the market is doing. Do they care if every person has a home? No. That is the prob with this govt -- *sob* everyone deserves to own their own home. FO, they do not. obama has delved in to rescue welfare home-owners twice now, artificially propping up the housing market. The housing market will languish in the doldrums until biz recovers, starts making profits and starts hiring again. That ain't gonna happen under obama.

**Norton** · 27-08-2010, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

The housing market will languish in the doldrums until biz recovers, starts making profits and starts hiring again.

On this we agree. At some point the decline in house prices will align with the price folks can afford. Then and only then will the housing market stabilize.

Government intervention in propping up prices in any market is best avoided by either political party who all contributed to the economic crisis we are faced with.

**Jet Gorgon** · 27-08-2010, 11:45 PM

^ Sure, Norts. You want obama and a super-majority of dems in power again? The lefty Congress has been in power for FOUR years, so was is Bush's fault? obama is like a rich, pimply-faced juvenile who stole his daddy's wallet and car keys, spent the wad and trashed the car. It's gonna take years to fix all the disasters he and his party created.

**phomsanuk** · 28-08-2010, 01:54 AM

Bloomberg TV just said USA GDP been revised down to 1.4% growth.

**Jet Gorgon** · 28-08-2010, 02:36 AM

^ That's the summer of recovery, obama-style.

**Panda** · 28-08-2010, 05:35 AM

"27 August 2010 Last updated at 16:21 GMT
Fed's Ben Bernanke ready to take action on economy

Mr Bernanke said all of the possible policy options contained risks
Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke has laid out four "unconventional" policy options to boost the US economy.
Top of the list is more "quantitative easing" - mass purchases of debt".

BBC News - Fed's Ben Bernanke ready to take action on economy

**Panda** · 28-08-2010, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ Sure, it has nothing to do with China fekin with the yuan's value or a highly over-rated euro. Look at the baht.
.

Arr yes. The Chinese Yuan being held artificially low and the $US being held artificially high. With China as a producer nation and USA as a consumer nation. A match made in heaven for the transfer of wealth.

But the Chinese Yuan has started to float a lot more freely since June this year.

Chinese Yuans to 1 USD (invert,data)

120 dayslatest (Aug 27)
6.79824lowest (Aug 9)
6.76707highest (Jun 15)

6.83309

But China isn't the only country to tie its currency to the $US. Libya, Oman, Qatar, The UAE and USAs close Middle East allie Saudi Arabia all have their currencies 100% pegged to the $US. Strange the Yanks dont complain about Saudi Arabia.

http://www.x-rates.com/d/SAR/USD/graph120.html

Plus there is a whole bag full of other countries who have their currencies loosely pegged to the $US such as Thailand, Hong Kong, Venezuela and Kuwait. Again all major exporting countries.

**Spin** · 21-09-2010, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by Spin

Originally Posted by sabang

It's too early still to call the end of the Recession

My call is that the recession in the USA is over now. Lets see how it pans out later when the officials call the actuall time, but I'm saying August 2009!

That was post 1473 and made on 20-07-2009, at 05:06 AM.

Today the National Bureau of Economic Research said that the recession officially ended in June 2009.

source

**phomsanuk** · 02-10-2010, 04:01 PM

Alas, one of the first acts of FDR was to end the paper dollar's link to gold, in 1933. However, under the Bretton Woods agreement after World War II, the United States still pledged that it would redeem paper dollars presented by other central banks for gold.
Plagued by the costs of the Vietnam War and the Great Society, Richard Nixon finally ended this pledge too, in 1971. The rest, as they say, is history:

And then the CPI accelerated,

**Panda** · 04-10-2010, 04:42 PM

China Bashers Pass Buck on What’s Ailing U.S.: Kevin Hassett - BusinessWeek

"China Bashers Pass Buck on What’s Ailing U.S.: Kevin Hassett"

"Oct. 4 (Bloomberg) -- China bashing is all the rage in Washington, as politicians of both parties blame the world’s fastest-growing major economy for high jobless rates in the U.S."

Blaming China for USAs manufacturing decline is nothing more than populist election propaganda.
Bringing in tariffs on Chinese goods is far more likely to backfire on the poorest sections of the US community. It aint going to mean new factories springing up all over USA. All it will mean is that the retailers will import their goods from the next cheapest country. All good news for the people of places like Mexico, Indonesia, Malaysia etc.. But no so much good news for the people of USA who will be paying more for their imported goods.
As pointed out in the article in the link above, --"there are more than 2 countries in the world."

The Chinese are not going to escalate the value of their currency by 40% overnight just to suit US politicans.

The ONLY way for USA to increase its competitiveness against manufacturing imports from developing countries is to devalue its OWN currency!
But how to do that, when it holds the worlds hegemony?
What about discouraging investment in $US by lowering interest rates to zero, then borrowing like crazy and going into massive debt. Or running the printing presses day and night to print new fiat paper money? Or even try dropping money out of helicopters as Bernanke suggested.

The Fed and US government are doing the only thing they can do to devalue the US currency and get the country back to work. Its going to mean more expensive everything from shoes to food to oil. And to announce such a strategy publicly would be unpopular in the extreme with the voters who are looking for a quick fix and a return to the good old days of a few years ago.

The rest about inflating their way out of debt at the expense of the creditor nations I have already said many times so I wont go into that here again.

**Panda** · 05-10-2010, 03:51 AM

Heres another interesting take on the US predicament endorsed by several economists.
Basically, they are saying the rest of the world will keep moving ahead while USA struggles to get out of its economic quagmire through a depreciation of its currency. With the growth in other nations economies, the USA just isn't big enough anymore to drag the rest of the world down with it. The indispensable nation is no longer indispensable.
Wall Street Sees World Economy Decoupling From U.S. - Bloomberg

"
Wall Street economists are reviving a bet that the global economy will withstand the U.S. slowdown.
Just three years since America began dragging the world into its deepest recession in seven decades, Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Credit Suisse Holdings USA Inc. and BofA Merrill Lynch Global Research are forecasting that this time will be different. Goldman Sachs predicts worldwide growth will slow 0.2 percentage point to 4.6 percent in 2011, even as expansion in the U.S. falls to 1.8 percent from 2.6 percent.
Underpinning their analysis is the view that international reliance on U.S. trade has diminished and is too small to spread the lingering effects of America’s housing bust. Providing the U.S. pain doesn’t roil financial markets as it did in the credit crisis, Goldman Sachs expects a weakening dollar, higher bond yields outside the U.S. and stronger emerging-market equities."

**Boon Mee** · 08-10-2010, 08:36 PM

Barack Obama is the worst jobs president since the Great Depression and possibly is the worst jobs president in US History.

He wanted to fundamentally change America. He did.

The US unemployment rate has not fallen below 10.8 percent in the last 12 14 months according to the Center for Economic and Policy Research. This is unprecedented.

From November 2008, the month he was elected, until now, the economy has shed more than an astonishing 4.4 million jobs. That’s worse than Hoover.

**Boon Mee** · 09-10-2010, 01:38 AM

US Economy just lost another 95K jobs in September...

Worst. President. Ever.

(Bloomberg)- Unemployment probably climbed in September for a second consecutive month as slower U.S. growth prompted companies to limit hiring, economists said before a report today.

The jobless rate rose to 9.7 percent from 9.6 percent in August, according to the median estimate of 83 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News. Payrolls excluding government agencies rose by 75,000, while a drop in public staffing as the decennial census wound down caused total hiring to decline for a fourth straight month, the report may also show.

A lack of jobs underscores the concern expressed by some Federal Reserve policy makers that the rebound from the worst recession since the 1930s has been too slow and may require easier monetary policy. Economists surveyed by Bloomberg project unemployment will average at least 9 percent through 2011, which may restrain consumer spending, the biggest part of the economy.

Way to go, Barry!

**sabang** · 10-10-2010, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Of course things would be better. Republicans have learned from the mistakes of Bush and his free-spending ways. Plus, the country would not be headed down the Socialist path like it is with the Democrats.

Yes, of course.

Just look at why your country is in it's current mess- it is because of successive Republican administrations. Fiscal irresponsibility bordering on the criminal, foreign policy blunders that have irrevocably damaged the standing of the US, and social policy that made most Americans poorer. The rot started with Nixon, but got much worse. By these admittedly low standards, at least Bush senior doesn't seem so bad now.

**phomsanuk** · 10-10-2010, 03:49 PM

Booze became legal after the depression, pot will probably do so after this recession, it's all about money,

Marijuana is one of the most therapeutically active substances known to humankind and has been used safely for over 5000 years. This information has only been "rediscovered" after almost a century of hysteria, propaganda and prohibition.
Members of our center use cannabis to relieve a variety of symptoms, including debilitating nausea, lack of appetite, wasting, pain, muscle spasms and tension that limit mobility, and to improve their overall sense of well-being.

Symptoms and conditions**

AIDS/HIV : Improves appetite and relieves nausea.
ADHD : Calms and encourages focus.
Arthritis : Used as an anti-inflammatory and to help reduce pain.
Brain/Head Injury : Relief from chronic pain and headaches. Increases focus, concentration, and mobility. Decreases neuralgia.
Cancer : Pain relief, increased appetite, decreased nausea, sleep aid.
Colitis : Alleviates pain, spasms and diarrhea.
Chemotherapy : Helps to reduce or relieve nausea and vomiting.
Crohn's Disease : Alleviates pain, spasm and diarrhea.
Epilepsy : Reduces seizure frequency.
Fibromyalgia : Pain relief.
Glaucoma : Reduces intra-ocular pressure.
Hepatitis C : Decreases fatigue, nausea, and chronic pain in muscles and joints. Increases appetite.
Irritable Bowel Syndrome : Increases appetite, aids in digestion, relieves diarrhea, and decreases bowel spasms.
Migraines : Relieves migraines.
Multiple Sclerosis : Reduces spasticity, pain, fatigue, bladder problems and depression.
Muscular Dystrophy : Relieves muscle spasms and pain. Improves mobility and appetite. Aids in sleep.
Nausea : Highly effective in relieving nausea.
Chronic Pain : Reduces pain.
Paraplegia/Quadriplegia : Relieves muscle spasms and neuralgia.
Parkinson's Disease : Reduces tremors, spasms, and pain. Increases mobility and appetite.
Radiation Therapy : Relieves nausea and vomiting. Increases appetite and energizes.
Seizure Disorders : Reduces seizure frequency.
Sleep Disorders : Sleep aid.
Addiction/Withdrawal : Decreases cravings, reduces withdrawal symptoms and relapse potential.

** This is a list of some conditions and the associated symptoms for which there exists research and anecdotal evidence of cannabis being used successfully. Please note that this list is not exhaustive.

**Panda** · 10-10-2010, 04:34 PM

^ The stuff thats around today is a heck of a lot more potent than it was 5,000 years ago, or even 20, 30 years ago. Selective breeding has produced a crop with maximum potency.

While I dont deny the therapeutic medicinal benefits, there is a down side as there is with any drug. Psychosis and other general social problems being among them.

Re the legalization question, I have to wonder if society really needs another legal drug for recreational purposes that has some negative impacts.
If has a genuine medical use, which I dont doubt, it should be available on prescription from a medical practitioner same as the opiates.

**Panda** · 10-10-2010, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by Panda

Does anyone with half a brain really expect anything would be any better under a republican president?

Of course things would be better. Republicans have learned from the mistakes of Bush and his free-spending ways. Plus, the country would not be headed down the Socialist path like it is with the Democrats.

The Dems and Republicans are so much alike and so far to the right by the standards of other developed countries that you needn't worry about the USA going down the socialist path there Booners.

The only thing you got to worry about is that your country is self destructing with its ultra right wing political philosophy.
The rest of the developed world has fed the profits of their nations down the line to the ordinary people by way of social benefits such as universal health care.
While the USA with its more right wing political/social philosophy has tended to focus the countries wealth in the hands of a few at the expense of the general population. Its worked quite well for a few decades, but now has run its course.

In general, average US citizens are far worse off than average citizens of other developed countries. The Kleptocrats running the US economy are reluctant to release their grip on power and wealth.

Its been a grand experiment over several decades or even longer. Different variations of democracy. Some towards socialism and some more towards the right. USA has been far towards the right with lesser benefits for its ordinary citizens. Social benefits cut to the bone relative to other countries standards.

Now, that USA is bordering on bankruptcy on the world stage, it remains to be seen if the people of the country will demand a departure of the ultra right wing version of democracy that has been part of the American psyche for so long.
Its their choice. Thats how democracy is supposed to work.

**Boon Mee** · 16-10-2010, 01:27 PM

Another Record!… Team Obama Goes 2 for 2 – Passes Trillion Dollar Deficit Mark For Second Year in a Row

The Obama Administration set another record today.
For the second year in a row they passed the trillion dollar deficit mark.

Look out Greece, here we come!

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