1. #4801
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacP View Post

    When taxation has taken sufficiently from the doers and given to the ner do well sufficiently to stifle all capital formation and only encourage mediocrity amongst the masses, then and only then will the 'social justice crowd" be assuaged.
    This ner do well thing is just HUGE and it's not just the food stamp crowd ... the Section 8, SSI, SSI-D stuff is mind boggling.

    Then we have the doers ... and what have they been doing the past 30 + years ? Closing factories and shipping the jobs overseas ... borrowing money to fight wars ... exploiting loopholes in the tax code ...

    What a crappy deal for those of us in the middle of these two groups of spoiled, pampered full grown wankers !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacP
    When taxation has taken sufficiently from the doers and given to the ner do well sufficiently to stifle all capital formation
    This is another broken far right talking point. Completely flawed and flat out wrong. Taxation has no effect on GDP growth and never has.


    Quote Originally Posted by MacP
    only encourage mediocrity amongst the masses
    Yes well Germany seems to be doing quite well.
    If inclined, I would like to see some support for this line of argument. Germany? Please press on, as I am keenly interested in the German economic model and its tax structure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robuzo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacP View Post
    Paul Ryan, love him or decry his attempt for fiscal constraint, suggests merely to slow the growth of entitlement spending in order to be able to pay for the Trillions it costs long term.
    That's ridiculous. Ryan wants to cut taxes for the very wealthy and cut Social Security and Medicare to pay for it. His plan increases the deficit and destroys Social Security.

    We had eight years of right-wing policies that resulted in a $12-trillion deficit (by the termination of Bush's final budget), in large part because of one entirely unnecessary war and another that wasn't prosecuted properly at the start and has since been dragged out beyond all purpose and a financial crisis engineered by Randian idiots like Ryan. Your side has been discredited, deal with it.
    This is too easy by half.

    Cite some real data on the plan. It is easily attainable in the public domain so, back up what you have intimated with fact please. Use the original of the plan that is published in the congressional record and avoid anything akin to editorial rehash.

    I will certainly stand correction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacP
    If inclined, I would like to see some support for this line of argument.
    This has all been posted before..



    State of Thought: Tax Rates and GDP Growth

    Debunking the claim that higher income-tax rates reduce GDP. - Slate Magazine



    Quote Originally Posted by MacP
    Germany? Please press on, as I am keenly interested in the German economic model and its tax structure.
    My point was that Germany has a thriving economy and is a "Social Democracy". Where is the mediocrity there? I mentioned nothing of its tax policy.

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    If American doesn't get it's fiscal act together, the Federal government is facing insolvency and the nation is facing financial meltdown, a breakdown in social order, and possible dissolution. These things, when they 'crack' happen very quickly- and the chinks ain't gonna bail out your profligacy forever. So lets argue about small things, as usual. Lets label everything 'libbie' or 'RWA' so we can avoid the real issues. Blame the mussies too, or the blacks, for good measure. I do hope there are some adults left inside the Beltway, although in fairness Obama does seem one of few, albeit a gormless, spineless political toady when it comes down to it.
    probes Aliens

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    If American doesn't get it's fiscal act together, the Federal government is facing insolvency and the nation is facing financial meltdown, a breakdown in social order, and possible dissolution. These things, when they 'crack' happen very quickly- and the chinks ain't gonna bail out your profligacy forever. So lets argue about small things, as usual. Lets label everything 'libbie' or 'RWA' so we can avoid the real issues. Blame the mussies too, or the blacks, for good measure. I do hope there are some adults left inside the Beltway, although in fairness Obama does seem one of few, albeit a gormless, spineless political toady when it comes down to it.
    you are a bit over projecting, aren't you ? fiscal deficits are resolved through growth, not cutbacks

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    ^ Nah- I'm just talking Economics 101 BF. 'Fiscal' refers to basic budgeting, housekeeping if you like. Some 'cutbacks' are well justified- runaway Pentagon/ & 'black' Defence spending being an obvious example. Certain long term fiscal measures too- HC reform an obvious example.

    But budgeting certainly does not just mean austerity- indeed, some of the measures being proposed by the gas & oil party are utterly reckless and shortsighted. The right wing of the GOP, given their head, would endanger the nations future, really. Simply put, the USA needs to collect a bit more tax from it's undertaxed Rich & Corporations, so it can contain it's runaway budget deficit, address it's debt blowout, and continue to provide the essential services a government provides to maintain the countries 'first world' status and competitiveness, such as education and infrastructure.

    The Bush tax cuts were an official failure- which is not to say they would have been so if they were tax cuts based on higher rates to begin with, but in the event tax rates being where they already were, they just failed to stimulate investment, increased the wealth gap, blew the government deficit out, and consumption collapsed in a heap when the (inevitable) crunch came, because the once affluent middle class had no money left to spend. The answer to this is not to turn the US into a 2nd or 3rd world country, which is seemingly what the repubs want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    I do hope there are some adults left inside the Beltway, although in fairness Obama does seem one of few, albeit a gormless, spineless political toady when it comes down to it.
    Yes, but our toady....most of the time.

    Obama is a politician, and politicians have to be pushed. Obama leans the right way, and he pays attention...most of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    The Bush tax cuts were an official failure ...(snip)... they just failed to stimulate investment, increased the wealth gap, blew the government deficit out, and consumption collapsed in a heap when the (inevitable) crunch came, because the once affluent middle class had no money left to spend. The answer to this is not to turn the US into a 2nd or 3rd world country, which is seemingly what the repubs want.
    That's the part I don't get...what's in it for them unless you're a mulit-national corporation with absolutely no allegiance to any nation and the laws in place to influence--read buy--the elected officials. Why not make the States another cheap labor pool? One labor pool is as good as another if you have no allegiance to the welfare of any.

    Then I think I'm paranoid. I forget about it.

    I look around. Look at the right wing nuts and the freedoms they roll back or promise to roll back as soon as they get in office. I think of history. I think of the Weimar republic: tremendous literature and theater, scientists, free open society....

    We should always be attentive. Tell me I shouldn't be concerned.

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    ^That's the difference between now and, say, the US during earlier, more sane (at least in the area of domestic economic policy) Republican administrations such as Eisenhower and Nixon. Back then, the movement of capital and labor was limited by borders. Nowadays, capital has no borders and labor is no longer so restricted by factors such as strong labor unions (a check on illegal labor that the anti-immigration doesn't seem to get).
    “You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her think.” Dorothy Parker

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrG
    Tell me I shouldn't be concerned.
    At the extremes, you should be- given some of the extreme GOP rhetoric, and the sort of 'hush hush' money bankrolling some of this stuff (kochbots etc), and their real agenda- plus their utter willingness and ability to outright lie to the great unwashed, which in this case means the Republican faithful. Peoples ability to swallow lies at the altar of their own stubborn conviction never ceases to amaze me.

    But take a step back. In reality, the GOP candidate, Mitt, is no Teabagger or Right wing nutjob. And in reality, the Obama Presidency has not been the least Liberal- it has been Centrist, marked only by it's willingness and ability to compromise on everything- and the passing of HC reform, but marked by this same willingness to compromise and bend to vested interests. There isn't that huge a difference between the parties, except the gas & oil party has abandoned any pretext of being about anything except lobbying on behalf of Wealth and Vested Interest. (In contrast, the Dem's merely kowtow to them).

    Perhaps the main problem with the 'loonies' (as they were called under Bush snr) is the fact they make too much bloody noise.

    But the US needs to get it's fiscal house in order, and the Republican positions are folly, and potentially dangerous.

  12. #4812
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    Boon Mee ... here's a lesson your years in the military should have taught you:

    "I don't think it's good, frankly, for our country to undermine our President. I don't intend to do so." (George W. Bush)

    IMHO ... you need to remind yourself of some things and stop lowering yourself to the bog bottom standards of some of the expats living overseas.

    Cheers ... DUDE !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Storekeeper View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacP View Post

    When taxation has taken sufficiently from the doers and given to the ner do well sufficiently to stifle all capital formation and only encourage mediocrity amongst the masses, then and only then will the 'social justice crowd" be assuaged.
    This ner do well thing is just HUGE and it's not just the food stamp crowd ... the Section 8, SSI, SSI-D stuff is mind boggling.

    Then we have the doers ... and what have they been doing the past 30 + years ? Closing factories and shipping the jobs overseas ... borrowing money to fight wars ... exploiting loopholes in the tax code ...

    What a crappy deal for those of us in the middle of these two groups of spoiled, pampered full grown wankers !!!
    Spot-on, SK.

    What you post in bold is fact.

    No one can deny that.

    And we are living the results of these policies. And we will live them out for decades.
    ............

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    If American doesn't get it's fiscal act together, the Federal government is facing insolvency and the nation is facing financial meltdown, a breakdown in social order, and possible dissolution. These things, when they 'crack' happen very quickly- and the chinks ain't gonna bail out your profligacy forever. So lets argue about small things, as usual. Lets label everything 'libbie' or 'RWA' so we can avoid the real issues. Blame the mussies too, or the blacks, for good measure. I do hope there are some adults left inside the Beltway, although in fairness Obama does seem one of few, albeit a gormless, spineless political toady when it comes down to it.
    When last checked, the total revenue taken in by the Internal Revenue of the United States was approximately 2.4 Trillion with a T. Now I ask you, with that as a given, why does this administration or for that matter, any administration, spend and appropriate twice that amount for the same fiscal year.

    The very thought of confiscatory tax policy on the "rich" (read those making over $250,000) riding to the rescue to the tune of Trillions, is blatantly nonsense.

    What the United States have, is a spending problem, not a revenue problem. I concur completely that when the house falls, it will fall in the blink of an eye, much to the delight of the ever growing number of enemies of the U.S.A..

    Sadly, regardless of party affiliation, there are very few voices of reason when it comes to the hard job of cutting, actual cutting. Even those that want to slow growth of government, find no friends for the most, as support for these 'hard things", will surely, in the short term, shorten the careers of countless politicians.

    The will to do the necessary need come from the non career Pol.. The path is clear to the reasoned thinkers. Just as the call for higher taxes must perhaps be heard, the spenders and recipients of the Governments largess, must be willing to concede, for the good of the Nation, and dare I say, the World, the madness must stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacP
    If inclined, I would like to see some support for this line of argument.
    This has all been posted before..



    State of Thought: Tax Rates and GDP Growth

    Debunking the claim that higher income-tax rates reduce GDP. - Slate Magazine



    Quote Originally Posted by MacP
    Germany? Please press on, as I am keenly interested in the German economic model and its tax structure.
    My point was that Germany has a thriving economy and is a "Social Democracy". Where is the mediocrity there? I mentioned nothing of its tax policy.
    I appreciate the effort. Sadly, for me anyway, it is only two dimensional.

    During and after the Second World War, GDP skyrocketed necessarily, regardless of taxes. Subsequently, in the late 60's after a number of boom and bust cycles, taxes were taken down to stimulate growth and while growth was not always maintained, it did have the desired effect, temporarily.

    Our friends at the Slate, do not even address on this graph, the size of the actual economy in real dollars. The omission of this very critical number, hides the fact that growth percentage of the worlds largest economy, will necessarily slow as the total of the GDP rises. After all, it is a bit of a miracle in itself, that having lost a significant portion of the manufacturing sector in the U.S., when compared to the emerging pre and post WWll United States economy, that had to grow in output by Government fiat, we Americans can maintain stability, let alone growth to the plus side.

    Look to the Reagan and Bush the Elder years to witness the effect of lower taxation and the easing of regulation. Clinton, even profited from the tax policy of Reagan a bit.

    Regardless, there is not sufficient will for tax increase nor cuts in spending. Perhaps, the abyss is our destiny should be not retire from the present "trench warfare".

  16. #4816
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    Perhaps the main problem with the 'loonies' (as they were called under Bush snr) is the fact they make too much bloody noise. But the US needs to get it's fiscal house in order, and the Republican positions are folly, and potentially dangerous.
    The trouble is, it's not just noise. I reference Scott Walker, Gov of Wisconsin, making drastic cuts, ending collective bargaining rights for Govt. unions, and the Gov. of Michigan declaring some cities disaster zones, designating Managers witht the power to overide local government, even overriding elected officials. It is not like facism, it is facism, and it's going on right now.
    I hope you're right. I hope it is just noise and rhetoric, but I look around and I see a new Reich changing the rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacP View Post

    Our friends at the Slate, do not even address on this graph, the size of the actual economy in real dollars. The omission of this very critical number, hides the fact that growth percentage of the worlds largest economy, will necessarily slow as the total of the GDP rises. After all, it is a bit of a miracle in itself, that having lost a significant portion of the manufacturing sector in the U.S., when compared to the emerging pre and post WWll United States economy, that had to grow in output by Government fiat, we Americans can maintain stability, let alone growth to the plus side.
    I wouldn't call the Slate "our" friends, but I agree with you on the scewed chart and the missing $ data. More lies with manipulated statistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacP
    The very thought of confiscatory tax policy on the "rich" (read those making over $250,000) riding to the rescue to the tune of Trillions, is blatantly nonsense.
    How is it a 'confiscatory' tax policy on the Rich? Sheer hyperbole.

    1- the Bush tax cuts were and remain temporary. And they failed in their stated aim of stimulating the economy.
    2- the cessation of Inheritance tax (which only effects very wealthy estates) was temporary also
    3- the rich pay less tax than the middle class
    4- the rich pay less tax than they did under Reagan, Clinton- in fact less than at any time since the 1920's

    My general philosophy on tax is shared by many, and easily stated- "the less the better". But how is it fair that the wealthiest 1% of society are paying less tax than the Middle class- ie the backbone of the economy- at a time when the US government is mired in debt and running a huge Deficit?

    It seems the repetitive GOP mantra of 'Patriotism' and 'Americanism' is only for the poor folk.

    If the so called 1% paid (shudder) the same amount of tax as the American Middle class, it would go a long way to addressing the runaway Federal Deficit. Whats so unfair about that?

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    Well, y'all want to hear what the nonpartisan CBO has to say about Obama's plan to grow the economy?

    Obama Budget Would Reduce Economic Growth. “Larger deficits caused by the budget would cause the government to issue more bonds, sucking up private capital to finance its debts and thereby reducing the funds businesses could use to expand and hire, the CBO said. An increased tax on capital gains included in the president’s plan would also tend to reduce private capital, it says.”

    Source

    Obama doesn't have a clue nor do any of his so-called 'economic team'. Turbo-Tax Timmy who can't pay his Federal Taxes. The administration is a joke.

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    ^ This is only a half truth.

    Here the CBO report's summary explains that it is the lower taxes in the bill that would cause the deficit to rise and would offset economic growth. Yes you heard it right TAX CUTS.

    "CBO estimates that the President’s budgetary proposals would boost overall output initially but reduce it in later years. For the 2013–2017 period, under most of the estimates CBO produced using alternative models and assumptions, the President’s proposals would increase real (inflation-adjusted) output (relative to that under current law) primarily because taxes would be lower than those under current law, and, therefore, people’s disposable income and their demand for goods and services would be greater. Over time, however, the proposals would reduce real output (relative to that under current law) because the deficits would exceed those projected under current law, and the effects of increasing government debt would more than offset the favorable effects of lower marginal tax rates on labor income."

    Source

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    ^
    Well, the HuffPo is not a legimate source of unbiased information, is it? We reckon the unbiased CBO has the numbers correctly.

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    The quote was in the CBO's report it is crystal clear in what it says. I didnt even bother to add in the HuffPo commentary just the CBO quote in the above post. I will take the extra step of providing the link to the CBO's website that clearly show the quote.

    CBO | The Economic Impact of the President's 2013 Budget

  23. #4823
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacP
    Regardless, there is not sufficient will for tax increase nor cuts in spending. Perhaps, the abyss is our destiny should (w)e not retire from the present "trench warfare".
    Which is why I'm not agreeable to paying more taxes. Until I see an honest effort to avert the impending financial crisis I'll keep as much as my resources as I can. I don't see the government coming to my aid when the dollar becomes worthless. I see them calling for all citizens to turn in their wedding rings to finance the politicians' escape!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacP
    The very thought of confiscatory tax policy on the "rich" (read those making over $250,000) riding to the rescue to the tune of Trillions, is blatantly nonsense.
    How is it a 'confiscatory' tax policy on the Rich? Sheer hyperbole.

    1- the Bush tax cuts were and remain temporary. And they failed in their stated aim of stimulating the economy.
    2- the cessation of Inheritance tax (which only effects very wealthy estates) was temporary also
    3- the rich pay less tax than the middle class
    4- the rich pay less tax than they did under Reagan, Clinton- in fact less than at any time since the 1920's

    My general philosophy on tax is shared by many, and easily stated- "the less the better". But how is it fair that the wealthiest 1% of society are paying less tax than the Middle class- ie the backbone of the economy- at a time when the US government is mired in debt and running a huge Deficit?

    It seems the repetitive GOP mantra of 'Patriotism' and 'Americanism' is only for the poor folk.

    If the so called 1% paid (shudder) the same amount of tax as the American Middle class, it would go a long way to addressing the runaway Federal Deficit. Whats so unfair about that?
    Well, you know, it turned out that despite what the loonies, aka the Dubya Administration, said, the Iraq War hasn't actually paid for itself. The $3 trillion plus for that, not to mention the ongoing disaster in Afghanistan, have to come from somewhere. When Dubya, the right-wing hero, cut taxes during wartime and wiped out the Clinton surplus the "patriots" were singing his praises. Now they are worried about deficits. Are these people to be taken seriously?

  25. #4825
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    Quote Originally Posted by robuzo
    Are these people to be taken seriously?
    How can they be?

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