Thread: Regime change.

Georgia move fails to halt raids


Georgia insists that all its forces are now outside South Ossetia

Russia has continued air raids deep inside Georgia, after it rejected Tbilisi's announcement that it had called a ceasefire and wanted talks.
Jets bombed targets near Tbilisi, including the airport, and Russia said its warships had sunk a Georgian boat that approached and tried to attack.
Russia earlier took control of the breakaway region of South Ossetia, forcing Georgian troops to withdraw.
The US has accused Russia of seeking "regime change" in Georgia.
Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili told the BBC his forces had observed a ceasefire since 0500 on Sunday morning, but had still been bombed by Russian planes. He said his government had been trying "all day" to contact Russia to discuss a ceasefire.
Peace mission
Russian jets were still carrying out bombing raids late on Sunday. Witnesses said jets had hit Tbilisi International Airport, as well as a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.

The airport was hit only a few hours before French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner and Finnish Foreign Minister Alexander Stubb arrived on a peace mission.
See a map of the region
A Georgian official said earlier that Russian planes had bombed the western town of Zugdidi and Georgian-controlled territory inside Abkhazia. The claims could not be independently verified.
Later Russia's navy said it had sunk what it called a Georgian missile boat that had approached at high speed and tried to attack Russian warships in the Black Sea.

The conflict has caused civilian casualties and more are at risk


Antonio Guterres
UN High Commissioner for Refugees



Challenging situation for Moscow
Crisis day-by-day
Q&A: Violence in South Ossetia

Meanwhile, there the US clashed with Russia at the United Nations Security Council, accusing it of seeking "regime change" in Georgia.
The US ambassador to the UN, Zalmay Khalilzad, quoted Russia's foreign minister saying Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili "must go".
He asked his Russian counterpart, Vitaly Churkin: "Is the goal of the Russian Federation to change the leadership of Georgia?"
Mr Churkin did not directly answer the question, but said there were leaders who had "become an obstacle".
The council has met for four days running, but has failed to agree on the wording of a statement calling for a ceasefire.
But the US said it was preparing a draft resolution condemning Russia. Analysts said although Russia would veto such a statement, the US wanted to build backing for the motion to demonstrate international opinion.
Clashes in South Ossetia itself were reported to be less intense on Sunday, as Russian forces took control and Georgian troops drew back.


Mikhail Saakashvili claims Russia has not respected the ceasefire

Local residents fleeing the area on Sunday morning told the BBC that Tskhinvali was relatively quiet.
Later, however, the BBC's Richard Galpin described a sense of panic on Sunday night in the Georgian town of Gori, near South Ossetia, amid fears that Russian troops were about to march on the town.
He had been warned by the interior ministry to leave Gori, only to find that the road to Tbilisi was crammed with cars full of fleeing civilians.
'Disproportionate force'
Georgia's announcement of its ceasefire came in a statement from the foreign ministry, stating that Georgia "today stopped firing in the South Ossetian conflict zone and is ready to begin talks with Russia on a ceasefire and cessation of hostilities".
It said a note had been passed to the Russian embassy in Georgia to that effect.

ARMED FORCES COMPARED

GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95

RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550

Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments
But a Russian foreign ministry official was quoted by Interfax saying "our information does not confirm the Georgian statement".
"There are indications that exchanges of fire are continuing and the Georgian forces have not been fully withdrawn from the conflict zone," he said.
The United Nations refugee agency (UNHCR) called on the parties to the conflict to grant safe passage for thousands of civilians trying to escape the war zone.

The UNHCR estimates that between 10,000 and 20,000 people have been displaced within Georgia, including South Ossetia, while Russia has said that a further 30,000 people have fled north into the Russian province of North Ossetia.


"The conflict has caused civilian casualties and more are at risk," UN High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres said.
"It is essential that humanitarian agencies be able to reach the affected and the displaced."
Meanwhile tensions were rising in Georgia's other breakaway region, Abkhazia.
The leader of the separatist government there, Sergei Bagapsh, said he had ordered a military operation to clear Georgian forces out of Abkhazia's Kodori Gorge, and gave them a deadline to leave.
Georgia has accused Russia of landing 4,000 more troops in Abkhazia via the Black Sea. The separatists said Georgia had deployed a similar number of soldiers south of the Abkhaz border.

BBC NEWS | Europe | Georgia move fails to halt raids

Meanwhile, there the US clashed with Russia at the United Nations Security Council, accusing it of seeking "regime change" in Georgia.

The above enlarged text is from the article above from the BBC.

Does anybody else find it hypocritical/ironic/anger making that the US is accusing a country of seeking "regime change". After all isn't it the US that has forced "regime change" on two countries in the last 8 years and spends billions of dollars every year trying implement changes in other countries.

^
Last paragraph
In a nutshell !

Originally Posted by mrsquirrel

Does anybody else find it hypocritical/ironic/anger making that the US is accusing a country of seeking "regime change". After all isn't it the US that has forced "regime change" on two countries in the last 8 years and spends billions of dollars every year trying implement changes in other countries.

Absolutely,

and this is why stupid Bush has created a very dangerous precedent,

another reason why Americans have been irresponsible for voting such a fool at the top, we are all paying the price for it by making the world a more dangerous place

It will certainly be interesting to see how this pans out.

The boot is on the other foot now that Russia is talking 'regime change' and I wonder how the US can react to it, without having their own rhetoric thrown back at them?

It seems they've got all the aces- Georgia started the fighting by sending it's troops in to Ossettia- thus giving Russia the excuse to respond in kind, the people there overwhelmingly want to be with Russia anyway, and now Russia has got a fair sized Army in Ossettia- which I don't think they'll be in any hurry to move. And the other, unpronouncible renegade province seems poised to go the same way.

Originally Posted by mrsquirrel

Does anybody else find it hypocritical/ironic/anger making that the US is accusing a country of seeking "regime change". After all isn't it the US that has forced "regime change" on two countries in the last 8 years and spends billions of dollars every year trying implement changes in other countries.

Yes, the US is very hypocritical. Since WWII is when the US really started actively dong regime change in foreign countries. As we know, it's for the political and economic interests of a few.

Originally Posted by mrsquirrel

"The conflict has caused civilian casualties and more are at risk," UN High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres said. "It is essential that humanitarian agencies be able to reach the affected and the displaced."

Originally Posted by Happyman

^ Last paragraph In a nutshell !

How many civilian casualties were there from the invasion of Afganistan and Iraq. Yet these were seen as acceptable 'regime changes'.

I keep wondering if we are at a point now where their are too many big boys beating their chests and that the thread about the impending WW3 is actually quite real.

^

“Russia is in it to win, not to fight to some kind of stalemate.”

Agreed, a policy The US and Israel should emulate. “Wars” that don’t have a clear victor drag on for years and cause more damage than quick decisive action. If the decision is made to use military force, the humane thing to do is to use overwhelming force to end it quickly and then everyone can move on.

I will reserve judgement on whether Russia was justified in its action or not, but I would have to say I approve of its military strategy.

^

No.

Originally Posted by Accidental Ajarn

Fuck don't you guys get tired of repeating your hatred of America? Now The US is resposnible for Russia invading Georgia. You lefties found some way to turn this in YET ANOTHER anti-USA thread. Bunch of one trick ponies here, you guys have only one view of the world USA=Bad and never seem to tire of repeating it. Ok, how many street protests will there be in Europe by the "anti-war" crowd. Fucking hypocrites Actually, I don't know that much about the historical situation between Russia and Georgia. But before I would make a wild claim such as it is America's fault, I would like to see some evidence.

Originally Posted by Accidental Ajarn

Fuck don't you guys get tired of repeating your hatred of America? Now The US is resposnible for Russia invading Georgia. You lefties found some way to turn this in YET ANOTHER anti-USA thread. Bunch of one trick ponies here, you guys have only one view of the world USA=Bad and never seem to tire of repeating it. Ok, how many street protests will there be in Europe by the "anti-war" crowd. Fucking hypocrites Actually, I don't know that much about the historical situation between Russia and Georgia. But before I would make a wild claim such as it is America's fault, I would like to see some evidence.

Right......

drop the victim status for a moment and see what is actually being said.....