1. #10226
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    What a relief that the current air pollution prevents me leaving the lair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelFarage View Post
    You're comparing a referendum that was mandated by an election and took place with a referendum that is an impossibility.
    The referendum you refer to wasn't legally binding so elections and imaginary mandates are neither here nor there.

    I'm not comparing anything, I'm simply asking the same question Betty is asking, aka changing the furniture but keeping the logic:

    Quote Originally Posted by foobar View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    Do you support a referendum and direct implementation of the result? Yes or no. Simple.
    If the referendum was to lower the age of consent to 5 years old, ...how would you answer your own question?

    Yes or no. Simple
    If you refuse to answer it means you don't support the will of the people or the implementation of referendum results ...when you don't like what has been voted on.
    -----------


    Oh dear, where has Betty suddenly flounced off to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrB0b View Post
    Have I? I support referendums in democratic societies where referendums are a part of the established political culture. Referendums do not fit well into British democracy and this one was incredibly badly managed. To put such a complex and serious issue to a simple majority vote was breathtakingly irresponsible and to then follow it by invoking A50 without any planning or discussion whatsoever was foolish in the extreme.
    It was quite painful reading your posts over several pages because while 1 in 3 of your posts contain interesting comment, the other 2 out of 3 are just opinionated hyperbole and personal insults.

    Let's have a look what you have written above:

    (Other than the first two words) The first sentence says very little about the UK/Brexit situation, but your opinion appears to be that you do support referendums in specific situations. Good.

    Let's move onto your next comments: Brexit - It's Still On!

    Secondly, your opinion is that British democracy doesn't facilitate referendums well. You also add that this one was badly managed.

    Your opinion in your final sentence is clear that you are against referendums in this context; phrases such as breathtakingly irresponsible and foolish in the extreme make that clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo;
    You have said several times that you do not support people taking charge of democratic processes
    &, as seen above, you don't support people taking charge of democratic processes in this context although you said you do where it's part of the established political culture. If you had just said as much when asked, I could have been working on my Python or playing on my new guitar.

    Many times, so many..., I have highlighted the divide between the likes of you/Troy with others: you don't believe the British parliamentary system facilitates direct democracy through referendums while the leave folk believe that this was directly stated by Cameron and the Brexit leaflet:



    "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

    You are right in so much as this referendum is not fitting in with the parliamentary process. On one side, the referendum leaflet was explicit:"The government will implement what you decide " On the other hand, parliamentarians are trying to: 1) have a new referendum; 2) stop Brexit entirely. Cameron, after putting this situation in place, should have stayed and seen it through.
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    How do I post these pictures???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    As opposed the utopia of France...

    Deaths in double figures, army deployed throughout the country, nearly 15 protester's eyes blown out (and these are figures from a few months ago...):
    nice distraction, wtf has this got to do with Brexit, Britard

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    nice distraction, wtf has this got to do with Brexit, Britard


    You will find it harder to watch from your offices this weekend, Paps because Macron has called the army in to protect you...

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    betty, referundums can be good or bad for democracy depending on the political context when it's being used, because populism and mob rules always lead to dictorship

    when the question is fair and balanced on an important issue after careful political considerations, then yes REF are good

    when the question is done to manipulate crowds or satisfy populist ideas in a charged political environment, then it's a democratic disaster

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    you don't support people taking charge of democratic processes

    A completely erroneous assumption. Do you seriously believe that comparing and contrasting the benefits and disadvantages of different kinds of democracy while also taking into account the development and context of this different types of democracy constitutes "don't support people taking charge of democratic processes"? You're quite right, stick with python and the guitar, you're well out of your depth when discussing politics and political systems.
    The Above Post May Contain Strong Language, Flashing Lights, or Violent Scenes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post


    You will find it harder to watch from your offices this weekend, Paps because Macron has called the army in to protect you...
    The Yellow Vests have lost the support of the majority already, it's a ghost movement now, it self destroyed thanks to the violence of the "bad blocks" and the mob rule mentality that dominated the movement where free speech within the movement was censored

    it's finished, this is their last act

    still quite impressive though,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    nice distraction, wtf has this got to do with Brexit, Britard
    I asked the same yesterday ...no answer

    Maybe I should post a video of an erupting volcano as an argument against Brexit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    betty, referundums can be good or bad for democracy depending on the political context when it's being used, because populism and mob rules always lead to dictorship

    when the question is fair and balanced on an important issue after careful political considerations, then yes REF are good

    when the question is done to manipulate crowds or satisfy populist ideas in a charged political environment, then it's a democratic disaster
    I agree.

    The EU has been a big point, split down the middle, since the 70s. This referendum should have been done properly, but was shameful on both sides, and it has only gotten worse since the result; the early days of Grove/Johnson (two untrustworthy idiots) set the tone, and seems there has never been any adults in the room to change the tone.

    That doesn't change the fact that the EU is unpopular in many places including the UK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    This referendum should have been done properly, but was shameful on both side
    Hmm, according to your own words such a statement means you don't support people taking charge of democratic processes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrB0b View Post
    Hmm, according to your own words such a statement means you don't support people taking charge of democratic processes.
    I always support democracy being given back to the people. I don't support the current institutions of governance in the EU or the UK. The two are closely connected, so one affects the other.

    As for your other comment, you decontextualize when it suits you, recontextualize at other times to suit you, then band around insults based upon the deception you played; you are a strange man... Enjoy your studies, the legal profession will suit your skillset well.

    &, if you think I'm bad at political discussion, you should see my guitar playing...
    Last edited by Bettyboo; 28-03-2019 at 07:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    I agree.

    The EU has been a big point, split down the middle, since the 70s. This referendum should have been done properly, but was shameful on both sides, and it has only gotten worse since the result; the early days of Grove/Johnson (two untrustworthy idiots) set the tone, and seems there has never been any adults in the room to change the tone.

    That doesn't change the fact that the EU is unpopular in many places including the UK.
    finally, it took you what, 200 pages to get it? congrats

    yes the EU is unpopular in most places, growing pains etc... nobody deny that but the alternative is far worse

    and yes the world is not fair and it's shit, welcome to adulthood, young padawan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    I always support democracy being given back to the people. I don't support the current institutions of governance in the EU or the UK. The two are closely connected, so one affects the other.

    As for your other comment, you decontextualize when it suits you, recontextualize at other times to suit you, then band around insults based upon the deception you played; you are a strange man... Enjoy your studies, the legal profession will suit your skillset well.
    those institutions are going to evolve with time, once the EU is fully integrated and nationality become an administative label, not a people identity

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    technically the Brits are not Europeans, they are an ethnic group of their own, islanders and travellers

    in that sense, Brexit is perfectly legitimate

    if they want to die off as an endangered species, not for us to judge, let them choose their own destiny

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    ^ The Brits are not Europeans? Tell that to the Irish while you're at it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    yes the EU is unpopular in most places, growing pains etc... nobody deny that but the alternative is far worse
    It's not growing pains, the pain comes from the fact that forcing one ideology upon many different social and economic group is a fool's errand.

    Fundamentally, the wealth divide across Europe is growing from North to South, and has been for a long time; youth unemployment is at terrible rates in Southern Europe - this is at the heart of a democratic Europe, but simply hasn't been addressed adequately. The EU needs to change, they need to get Brexit out of the way and concentrate on their problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    those institutions are going to evolve with time, once the EU is fully integrated and nationality become an administative label, not a people identity
    Do you honestly believe that?

    How is youth unemployment going to rise in Southern Europe? If it doesn't then how are these populations going to be managed/subdued while they see people in other areas of Europe with high levels of employment? Are the Spanish going to move to Germany? How do the Greeks fit into this Utopia?

    How long is this Utopian Europe project gonna take to get right? How many millions of people will have to suffer during this time?
    Last edited by Bettyboo; 28-03-2019 at 07:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    betty, referundums can be good or bad for democracy depending on the political context when it's being used, because populism and mob rules always lead to dictorship

    when the question is fair and balanced on an important issue after careful political considerations, then yes REF are good

    when the question is done to manipulate crowds or satisfy populist ideas in a charged political environment, then it's a democratic disaster
    With that logic, a second referendum now, would also be pointless. You could even apply the same logic to a GE.
    Frankly the domestic atmosphere at he time of the original referendum was fairly benign. The political situation for the government was overcast at best, with Tories split over the influence of UKIP votes.

    Interesting that now UKIP is dead and presents no threat to government, the Tory party i still riven by huge fault lines.

    Your hopes of a hard brexit for your masturbatory fantasy seem to be slipping away now.

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    Has the revolution begun? Oh, sorry. That's tomorrow. What time's kickoff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bettyboo View Post
    It's not growing pains, the pain comes from the fact that forcing one ideology upon many different social and economic group is a fool's errand.

    Fundamentally, the wealth divide across Europe is growing from North to South, and has been for a long time; youth unemployment is at terrible rates in Southern Europe - this is at the heart of a democratic Europe, but simply hasn't been addressed adequately. The EU needs to change, they need to get Brexit out of the way and concentrate on their problems.
    does the EU has a lot of problems growing? of course it has. If it didn't, that will bring more questions than not and probably more internal fights for absolute power.

    Again you are forgetting the essentials: the legacy of wars and the danger of nationalism

    does the EU is trying to destroy nationalism? of course it does. That's the whole point, making us all brothers.

    In some ways the EU project is very much like communism, that is a manifest to stop absolute power for the national elite and populists who like to start wars to steal ressources from their neighboors and create cahos for the little people, that is the workers. The united workers manifest of international communism was to achieve peace and brotherhood of all the workers in the world, and to defend their right for a peaceful and meaningful future without wars started by their despicable elite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    technically the Brits are not Europeans, they are an ethnic group of their own, islanders and travellers

    in that sense, Brexit is perfectly legitimate

    if they want to die off as an endangered species, not for us to judge, let them choose their own destiny
    Historically inaccurate. The UK has been invaded by many and even occupied by some of your favourite Europeans. The UK is a better amalgam of european influences than the EU will ever be. Your disparate collection of northern and southern states is certainly doomed to failure. All that brexit has done is to expose the fractures in your proposed republic. Trying tp force greater union via the Lisbon treaty will be the final nail in the EU coffin.

    You should really be more polite when talking about true European ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Texpat View Post
    Has the revolution begun? Oh, sorry. That's tomorrow. What time's kickoff?
    Fuck off and die, you porky faced redneck c*nt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    With that logic, a second referendum now, would also be pointless. You could even apply the same logic to a GE.
    Frankly the domestic atmosphere at he time of the original referendum was fairly benign. The political situation for the government was overcast at best, with Tories split over the influence of UKIP votes.

    Interesting that now UKIP is dead and presents no threat to government, the Tory party i still riven by huge fault lines.
    too late now for REF2, and yes pretty charged political environment to carry one. Pointless as it will bring more questions if vote to remain.

    Your hopes of a hard brexit for your masturbatory fantasy seem to be slipping away now.
    you still think REMAIN is the default?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post
    Historically inaccurate. The UK has been invaded by many and even occupied by some of your favourite Europeans. The UK is a better amalgam of european influences than the EU will ever be. Your disparate collection of northern and southern states is certainly doomed to failure. All that brexit has done is to expose the fractures in your proposed republic. Trying tp force greater union via the Lisbon treaty will be the final nail in the EU coffin.

    You should really be more polite when talking about true European ancestry.
    that was 500 years ago, and you have been inbreeding ever since, hence why your island is full of degenerate idiots (chavs) with poor teeth
    Last edited by Dragonfly; 28-03-2019 at 07:52 PM.

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    the problem with the UK is they didn't really suffer from the war (the 2nd one) and were never invaded by Germans with the damages that came with it

    their "virgin princess" mentality is the whole reason why they don't want to be penetrated annally by the EU and why they are petrified of the big bad wolf (Germany, the old ennemy). However they have no problem doing it on their own, that is fingering their ass constantly with dildos.

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