1. #5376
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    ^ You missed the punchline...

    ...because it is fooking suicidal, economically and politically, to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    ^ You missed the punchline...

    ...because it is fooking suicidal, economically and politically, to do so.
    This is a major problem. Most MPs and the electorate are being bullied into thinking that no deal is inherently bad for the country, and it will lead to Armageddon.
    While I agree that it will cause some disruption for industry and social cohesion, it is by no means certain that total anarchy will ensue.
    Whatever plans the EU has for it need to be resolved by the 27 countries that remain. UK, despite its lack of leadership and political division will only have to agree as a single sovereign state, unleashed from the strictures of federal disunity on the mainland.
    It is clear that the potential for chaos is greater on the European side than for UK. I have said all along that reality and pragmatism will be the order of the day in future, for both sides.

    Once 29 March has passed, we will be left with whatever situation transpires from this holy screw up. The only thing to do, is to get on with it. No point in pontificating about future unknowns. I am firmly convinced that an air of common purpose will prevail. To do otherwise, is to invite further instability and uncertainty.
    Start by pursuing the common ground and see what happens.

    The only thing at stake here is political ambition. That problem needs the impartial leadership of a true leader who has shelved any such ideas. Over to you Mrs Merkel.

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  5. #5380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    ^ You missed the punchline...

    ...because it is fooking suicidal, economically and politically, to do so.
    Talk of suicide, the EU's economic success transformed into a collective suicide pact when it moved toward partial and then full political union; or maybe it was the German intention all along to dominate Europe through other means, we'll never know.

    Face it, the EU is doomed without reform which won't happen; Greece and Italy are serious impending problems, Spain and Portugal not so great yet still a burden esp if Frau stands firm and refuses to carry the weight; even with an undervalued currency Germans are not happy at having to finance her whims, she knows she cocked up which is why she's on her way out, and would like to leave on best terms possible which won't happen if she hands over another 100bn down payment with more to follow.

    Ireland, the sacrificial lamb, will be made to pay for EU intransigence over the manufactured border issue, while much of their illegal 80bn bailout was quietly funnelled to guess who? - that's right, the Irish banks; and which country's banks do you suppose benefited from there? While Verhofstadt insists rules are rules and must be obeyed, those same rules, fex illegal bailouts, are ignored if they risk impeding 'progress'. So through no fault of its own Ireland will suffer as a result of Brexit, its position as an effective tax haven is compromised, and hopefully this will rouse the people to create yet another headache for the gods.

    While all this is happening social unrest is spreading, and blame the Brits or global warming for comfort but the underlying cause of social unrest is generally economic. People are no longer afraid to air their concerns, and minor member leaders are increasingly at odds with dictatorial policies toward closer than an already committed union, and which are not in the interests of their countries. Apply the dual concept of EU as a collective entity, and also individual member states, where the gods decided the common good that overrides individual interests, and you have a recipe for mass rejection.

    And the EU do not know how to handle this without seeming 'weak'; that's right, when tyrants come under threat they invariably become more unyielding, stubborn, inflexible and bold. If there's any need to give examples, you are not paying attention to world events.

    However it was mismanaged, Brexit has highlighted serious problems on the mainland, others have watched and supported the fair odds of 27-1, often from fear of retribution than eagerness to punish one dissident member. And this is why the UK will not be the only one to leave, esp when the EU can no longer conceal its decline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabir View Post
    However it was mismanaged, Brexit has highlighted serious problems on the mainland, others have watched and supported the fair odds of 27-1, often from fear of retribution than eagerness to punish one dissident member. And this is why the UK will not be the only one to leave, esp when the EU can no longer conceal its decline.
    Apologies for snipping your post, but ther s something very fundamental about the final paragraph worthy of highlighting.
    The Union has not concealed its true ambition nor its impending decline. It is based on idealism and the one size fits all mantra which must be obeyed. Idealist and tyrannical federalism is shorn of its theoretical wonderful ness with one glance at the disparity between north and south, or even east and west.

    The biggest mistake was trying to unify a single currency. Nowhere is the mismatch in economy and finance greater. It’s possible to remember the similarities between the original membership of the common market. The problems became apparent with expansion and the effort required to subsume different cultures and economic strengths. The weaknesses were also inherited, blighting the growing idealism.

    They got so carried away with the ideal, they forgot to stop, take stock and even consider reform. The headlong rush to federalization has scuppered the master plan.

    Goodbye old friend, we won’t miss you, or your impending demise, because one way or another, the U.K. managed a great escape.

  7. #5382
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    The only serious issue remaining is the backstop, on which Brussels will not give assurances because that would be the green light for us to leave; they don't want that, I wouldn't wager that deep in her heart May wants it either, and she's supposed to be on our side!

    We're watching European politics sink to new lows, and that takes some doing.

  8. #5383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    So most Tory MPs are remainers are they?
    I think all MPs are in spite of their political rhetoric. When much to their surprise leave vote won the oh shit wot now scramble began.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    I think all MPs are in spite of their political rhetoric. When much to their surprise leave vote won the oh shit wot now scramble began.
    Indeed, I was just having a dig at the idea that because the Tory and Labour mandates included brexit doesn't mean all the MPs and electorate were pro brexit.

    Joining the common market was the right way forward in 1961, the right way forward in 1973 and the right way forward now. Any notion that a no-deal brexit is somehow good for the UK is pie-in-yhe-sky dreams. Leaving won't cause Armageddon but it will leave the UK worse off for many years and with a few less (needed) friends.

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    This may be of particular interest, or not.

    Angela Merkel: Nation States Must "Give Up Sovereignty" To New World Order

    Nation states must today be prepared to give up their sovereignty”, according to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who told an audience in Berlin that sovereign nation states must not listen to the will of their citizens when it comes to questions of immigration, borders, or even sovereignty.

    No this wasn’t something Adolf Hitler said many decades ago, this is what German Chancellor Angela Merkel told attendants at an event by the Konrad Adenauer Foundation in Berlin. Merkel has announced she won’t seek re-election in 2021 and it is clear she is attempting to push the globalist agenda to its disturbing conclusion before she stands down.

    In an orderly fashion of course,” Merkel joked, attempting to lighten the mood. But Merkel has always had a tin ear for comedy and she soon launched into a dark speech condemning those in her own party who think Germany should have listened to the will of its citizens and refused to sign the controversial UN migration pact:

    There were [politicians] who believed that they could decide when these agreements are no longer valid because they are representing The People”.

    [But] the people are individuals who are living in a country, they are not a group who define themselves as the [German] people,” she stressed.

    Merkel has previously accused critics of the UN Global Compact for Safe and Orderly Migration of not being patriotic, saying “That is not patriotism, because patriotism is when you include others in German interests and accept win-win situations”.

    Her words echo recent comments by the deeply unpopular French President Emmanuel Macron who stated in a Remembrance Day speech that “patriotism is the exact opposite of nationalism [because] nationalism is treason.”

    The French president’s words were deeply unpopular with the French population and his approval rating nosedived even further after the comments.
    Macron, whose lack of leadership is proving unable to deal with growing protests in France, told the Bundestag that France and Germany should be at the center of the emerging New World Order.

    “The Franco-German couple [has]the obligation not to let the world slip into chaos and to guide it on the road to peace”.

    “Europe must be stronger… and win more sovereignty,” he went on to demand, just like Merkel, that EU member states surrender national sovereignty to Brussels over “foreign affairs, migration, and development” as well as giving “an increasing part of our budgets and even fiscal resources”.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-27/angela-merkel-nation-states-must-give-sovereignty-new-world-order


    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    Joining the common market was the right way forward in 1961, the right way forward in 1973 and the right way forward now


    This "idea" of course may or may not come to pass. To suggest the UK citizens believe what the UK politicians say or the other EU countries politicians say is ludicrous. To suggest the Common Market of 1961/1973 is in any way similar to the EU now, today or it will become if what German and French leaders are suggesting transpires, is equally ludicrous.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

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    I don't get the Brexishitters, it's all about the immediate fall of the EU, but only a few months ago it was all about immigration and independence

    so which is which? and why do you care so much about the future of EU since you will not be part of it (in theory)

    to think we care about the UK staying is being delusional, in typical British style. We are so fooking glad you are going

    3 months to go and counting every seconds

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switch View Post

    They got so carried away with the ideal, they forgot to stop, take stock and even consider reform. The headlong rush to federalization has scuppered the master plan.

    Goodbye old friend, we won’t miss you, or your impending demise, because one way or another, the U.K. managed a great escape.
    political integration is the logical outcome of economic integration, you need your left hand to sync with your right hand, and only a central governing function can do that

    the problem is you are an island and can't integrate with anyone, loners who don't play well with others, as clearly demonstrated during the Brexit negotiations

    EU has problems, growing pains, perfectly normal, mistakes were made like integrating third world countries, and the UK. Now we are going to correct it, and I hope Brexit is the not only exit we will have to manage. Only the elite EU members should be part of that club, not former Eastern block shitholes, or islanders like Greece or the UK.

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    and Russia should join the EU, that will exit automatically all those crappy former satellites that joined the EU to join NATO

    enough of that shit,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    Indeed, I was just having a dig at the idea that because the Tory and Labour mandates included brexit doesn't mean all the MPs and electorate were pro brexit.

    Joining the common market was the right way forward in 1961, the right way forward in 1973 and the right way forward now. Any notion that a no-deal brexit is somehow good for the UK is pie-in-yhe-sky dreams. Leaving won't cause Armageddon but it will leave the UK worse off for many years and with a few less (needed) friends.
    Let's try again; the CM was a good idea and economically beneficial to all members of the trading block, at that time. Then it ceased to be just a successful economic community and started going off the rails, when the powers decided to morph into a single political unit and eventually a federation of states, or USofE.

    The common currency and closer political ties were marketed to curtail German ambitions so that peace would infect Europe, but 'political union' by accident or design has simply allowed that domination through other means.

    Any notion that a no-deal brexit is somehow good for the UK is pie-in-yhe-sky dreams
    You got a bit carried away, methinks. How many Brexiteers, do you suppose, had no-deal in mind when they voted, and how many of that handful thought gee that would 'be good for the UK'? But they did vote to leave, and anyone needing to feel better about that can call foul at the inquest on grounds that the Brexit camp presented a more persuasive set of lies.

    Then political egos and serial incompetence took over to put us where we are now.

    But trill away if it warms your cockles that UK will take a hit, though I expect when the EU can no longer paper over the cracks you will put it down to global warming or fracking; anything but corruption and economic/political mismanagement, since as you rightly pointed out these also exist in Britain, and ideological dysfunction.

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    ^ You need to read the Tory speeches from forty years ago. It was never joining solely on the basis of economics but for political and economic reasons. Gone are the days of nationalism and power within individual countries. Strength is in uniting with the continent and not trying to go it alone.

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    Only trouble is Troy the people don't want that. It just shows how out of touch politicians are with the people. The granny grabber has even admitted France would probably leave the EU if the people were given a vote. Great democratic institution the EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buriramboy View Post
    .... France would probably leave the EU if the people were given a vote. Great democratic institution the EU.
    The people of France can simply vote in a General Election for the party offering a Leave Referendum in their campaign manifesto.
    Just like the UK did, whilst being a member of the great democratic institution that is the EU.

    Would the UK still be leaving the EU, if the people were given a vote via another referendum, as per our great democratic institution the UK?


    With you being a defender of democracy and the will of the people etc, you will of course be supporting a 2nd referendum?
    Last edited by foobar; 29-12-2018 at 08:34 PM.

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    You can have another referendum when there is a mandate for it not when a bunch of whining bitches are screaming for one just because they lost the last one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buriramboy View Post
    You can have another referendum when there is a mandate for it not when a bunch of whining bitches are screaming for one...
    It was a good enough reason the first time round, why not now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by foobar View Post
    It was a good enough reason the first time round, why not now?
    You really are the dumbest cvnt on this forum, the Tories put it in their manifesto to hold a referendum on EU membership and won a majority in the GE hence there was a mandate for a referendum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buriramboy View Post
    You really are the dumbest cvnt on this forum, the Tories put it in their manifesto to hold a referendum on EU membership and won a majority in the GE hence there was a mandate for a referendum.
    Fucking spastics pandering to the UKIP demographic that deserted the racist right wing grass roots of Tory lower end scum nationalist Essex/BNP to win back support in the GE. And it worked, Cameron got his majority and look at Britain now, a fucking third world state about to suck WTO coon cock and take Septic dick up the arse.

    And you munters are too fucking stupid to see the irony.

    Recession beckoning and another devaluation in the wings.

    16 days to turd flushing time. Britain hits the sewer and the EU wipes its ass.

    I'm just soooo fucking looking forward to Labour winning the next GE and you wankers buy the shit farm.

    Enjoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buriramboy View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by foobar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by buriramboy View Post
    .......France would probably leave the EU if the people were given a vote. Great democratic institution the EU.
    The people of France can simply vote in a General Election for the party offering a Leave Referendum in their campaign manifesto.

    Just like the UK did, whilst being a member of the great democratic institution that is the EU.
    You really are the dumbest cvnt on this forum, the Tories put it in their manifesto to hold a referendum on EU membership and won a majority in the GE hence there was a mandate for a referendum.
    I knew you would come round to my way of thinking in the end.

    So you now agree that democracy is intact within the great democratic institution that is the EU?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    political integration is the logical outcome of economic integration, you need your left hand to sync with your right hand, and only a central governing function can do that
    I believe this is inevitable but will take decades to bring the benefits of integration to folks who cling to mileniums of tribal tradition.

    We as a species must, for our survival, put an end to the we and them paradyme that has divided us from the moment we sharpened a stick and killed a few of "them". All justified by "we" being good and "them" being evil.

    EU is an attempt to do in Europe what the US did when they formed a federal gov. At some point in future, expect the US, EU, Russian Federation et al will be further integrated into an integrated economic and political body.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buriramboy View Post
    Only trouble is Troy the people don't want that. It just shows how out of touch politicians are with the people. The granny grabber has even admitted France would probably leave the EU if the people were given a vote. Great democratic institution the EU.
    I think after what we witnessed with Brexit and what we are about to witness in terms of cahos in the UK, you guys made the case for not leaving ever the EU for any reasonable countries out there

    even Front National Lepen has given up on that dream,

    and why is it that every right wing authoritarian political parties are the ones who want an Exit !!! could it be that they need the independence to create their own paradise of corruption and despotism, like old times, pre-WW2 and pre-EC ?

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    The EU has made it so difficult to leave by tying everyone in to all the institutions that no one was ever even suppose to try and leave, in fact no one was even suppose to even think about leaving never mind trying to actually do it. Your house of cards will come tumbling down, it is inevitable may take 10-20 years but crumble it will. Let's see how the EU parliament looks after next year's elections.

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