Thread: FGM (Female Genital Mutilation) reaches 'epic' proportions

I was invited by one of our neighbours to an antique car club meet a few days ago - met and started chatting with a guy whose Triumph 2500 was simply gleaming - lovely .

Anyway, he is retired but spends most of his time working with refugees, mainly from Africa but also South America and some of the stories he tells are horrific and some are utterly sad and some are heartwarming.

I met him again yesterday as I wanted to contribute some of my time, while I still have spare time, to his organisation.

Long story short, he says the main problem is the role of women of the new refugees and how they are being introduced into 'western society'. This organisation relies on ex-refugees from the same homelands for a lot of help as they are aware of their culture, of course.
It was also found, however, that the negatives are very prevalent as well . . . women who have lived here for ten, twenty or so years are so westernised that they pose a threat to the new refugees, not just the men but also the women who are not used to 'modern' ways.

I help out with the South American refugees because I can speak Spanish passably and there are fewer problems/issues.

One issue that stands out is FGM and how widespread it is.

BEFORE THE USUAL MOB GO OFF ON THEIR ANTI-MUSLIM RANTS, FGM IS NOT AN ISLAMIC ISSUE
(There, that should last a few pages before this thread gets dog-housed as well)

Number of FGM victims found to be 70 million higher than thought

Half of girls and women cut live in just three countries as Unicef statistics reveal shocking global scale of barbaric ritual

The huge global scale of female genital mutilation has been revealed in disturbing new statistics, which show at least 200 million girls and women alive today have undergone ritual cutting, half of them living in just three countries.

The latest worldwide figures, compiled by Unicef, include nearly 70 million more girls and women than estimated in 2014 because of a raft of new data collected in Indonesia, one of the countries where FGM is most prevalent despite the practice being banned since 2006.

In the analysis of 30 countries, published to mark the International Day of Zero Tolerance for FGM, statistics showed women in Indonesia, Egypt and Ethiopia account for half of all FGM victims worldwide. Somalia has the highest prevalence of women and girls who have been cut – 98% of the female population between the ages of 15 and 49.

Claudia Cappa, the report’s lead author, said data from Indonesia shows FGM was practised more widely than researchers thought. “In countries where data was not available, we had previously only had anecdotal evidence. We knew Indonesia has a growing population of women and girls, but I would say (these figures) are higher than expected,” she said. “It shows it is a global issue, when the focus has previously been on Africa.”

Some 44 million victims of FGM around the world are aged 14 or younger, and the majority of girls who have had their genitals mutilated were cut before they were five years old, Unicef’s research found.

In Guinea, where 97% of girls aged 15 to 49 are FGM victims despite the practice being outlawed, Unicef staff described seeing girls taken away from their families against their will to be cut, on the orders of village authorities. One five-year-old died from her wounds.

“Two days after this Christian community celebrated Christmas in a village, five-year-old Koumba was among 11 girls that were taken into the bush, some without their parents’ permission or knowledge, and others directly against strong parental protest, to receive their ‘initiation’,” the charity’s report said.
.........................

Number of FGM victims found to be 70 million higher than thought | Society | The Guardian

Surprising:

137,000 women and girls in England and Wales have been cut, calling for better teacher training on how to spot girls at risk.

Horrible practise.

Originally Posted by panama hat

The latest worldwide figures, compiled by Unicef, include nearly 70 million more girls and women than estimated in 2014 because of a raft of new data collected in Indonesia, one of the countries where FGM is most prevalent despite the practice being banned since 2006.

What bothers me about this data is that the data is very imprecise, to the point of being massively inflated, in much the same way as HIV/AIDS data was inflated by many stakeholders in Africa during the 80's and 90s, for increased funding, for shock value, etc.

This cheapens the data/argument and creates a shaky position from which to argue.

An example is that FGM has several forms, from complete mutilation to a ceremonial 'cut' that actually is not a cut at all.

And while I personally do not like any form of FGM, we need to be careful arguing about a ceremony that does not cut or harm at all and lumping it into complete removal of vulva and the sewing of the vagina up.

That is a fair comment.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

An example is that FGM has several forms, from complete mutilation to a ceremonial 'cut' that actually is not a cut at all.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

And while I personally do not like any form of FGM

I'm no fan myself- and neither a fan of MGM for that matter.

But wouldn't it make more sense to concentrate our efforts on the hideous form of FGM found primarily in the Horn of Africa? Who are they trying to kid- they are not going to eliminate the practise, any more than an opponent of male circumcision will eliminate that practise. And describing the millions of women as 'victims' is about as counterproductive as describing the millions of circumsized men as such.

Originally Posted by crackerjack101

That is a fair comment.

Looking to up your post count with yet another nic?

Originally Posted by kingwilly

What bothers me about this data is that the data is very imprecise

I m guessing it would be difficult to get precise data from these countries where a lot of information is based on heresay and the number of doctors and/or nurses or care-givers in general is negligible

Originally Posted by kingwilly

to the point of being massively inflated

It could also be under-reported by an equally massive number - no idea, but it is a discussion worth having

Originally Posted by kingwilly

An example is that FGM has several forms, from complete mutilation to a ceremonial 'cut' that actually is not a cut at all.

Anything that even simulates slicing off the vulva or clitoris is in itself unacceptable - no idea where it is 'only' ceremonial, but it shouldn't be.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

we need to be careful arguing about a ceremony that does not cut or harm at all and lumping it into complete removal of vulva and the sewing of the vagina up.

No argument there. I am guessing - again - that we are dealing with the latter.

It's odd that the mothers and fathers of girls see no evil in this procedure - and that is where the culture clash comes in, especially from those that have been here or a while and the newbies

Originally Posted by sabang

And describing the millions of women as 'victims' is about as counterproductive as describing the millions of circumsized men as such.

I would suggest a difference between the two that isn't only obvious, but also grave.

Actually, there are many differences between the two mutilations, least of all having to do with increased levels of hygiene and the loss of sexual stimulation.

Anyway, if we were talking about MGM then we could possibly delve into it further, a bit like the 'Black Lives Matter' movement being criticised for not pushing the 'White Lives Matter' agenda

I'm not interested in 'delving' into male circumcision at all. While I would not choose it for my own infant son, if he chose to do so at an age where he could volitionally exercise that choice, he would be free to make that choice. I would also prefer to see the same with women getting circumsized- that's just me, my opinion. Others have different opinions. But there is a hideous form of FGM that should play no part in a civilised society, and I don't see why our well meaning crusaders shouldn't concentrate their efforts on that- y'know, where they can actually make a difference.

Originally Posted by panama hat

no idea where it is 'only' ceremonial, but it shouldn't be.

Much of Indonesia, for a start. And I agree, it should not be allowed, permitted, performed either.

Here's information about the different classifications of FGM. WHO | Classification of female genital mutilation

Originally Posted by panama hat

It's odd that the mothers and fathers of girls see no evil in this procedure - and that is where the culture clash comes in, especially from those that have been here or a while and the newbies

Originally Posted by panama hat

No argument there. I am guessing - again - that we are dealing with the latter.

But therein lies the problem, guessing numbers or practises means that any educational campaign or push to change this cultural acceptance will be a waste of effort at best, and counter productive, essentially doomed to start with.

If a group of NGO's go to a region and speak to them about the a group of people who 'only' practise Type IV, but they are speaking mainly about Type 1 or Type 2, then they lose credibility.

Any effort, needs to be more precise, any figures quoted need to be accurate to have the desired effect.

Originally Posted by baldrick

you have to wonder at the psyche of the man who decided it was a good idea to cut the clitoris' off little girls

That's the part I don't get also, with any of these barbaric practices or dogmatic shite from patriarchal religions (i.e. pretty much all of them) really.

It's quite trite given the topic at hand but the example I always think about is forcing women to dress conservatively. If you're a man who is part of a patriarchal religion that routinely looks to oppress/subjugate women why the fuck insist on that. Why not dictate mini-skirts and halter-tops so you could at least get a good perv out of the whole deal.

Not to take the serious note off of the OP.

I grew up in a tribe that dictated a ritual ceremony for cutting the foreskin of males must be carried out when the baby is 8 days old.
Of course food is served to the guests attending the ceremony after the cutting.

I do not know what actually happens to the foreskin once it is removed. Possibly flushed down the toilet, bundled up with many other previously removed foreskins and mailed to the IRS or sent on to Baldrick to make an evening sandwich.

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Any effort, needs to be more precise

Where is the limit set then? How precise can any study be given the geographical and societal restraints that set these limits . . . does this mean that nothing should be done before NGOs enter and try to educate?

Originally Posted by kingwilly

any figures quoted need to be accurate to have the desired effect.

I'd agree and disagree. I'd agree that (thanks for the link) the distinctions must be made . . . that seems kind of logical o start off with

Originally Posted by baldrick

circumcision is a common practice here in madagascar and male members of the family will eat the removed skin - I wonder if there is similar for the remains of the clit snipping ?

Though it sounds similar to cultures where the afterbirth/placenta is eaten . . . urgh. Actually, isn't placenta part of many medicines?
I digress . . .

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

That's the part I don't get also, with any of these barbaric practices or dogmatic shite from patriarchal religions (i.e. pretty much all of them) really.

In many cases, though, it isn't religion, simply tribal custom - kind of a like a passage to adulthood.

It's just odd knowing that the majority of the Somali women being taken care of underwent this procedure and see nothing wrong with their daughters having the same done to them and are quite upset when told that the practice isn't done nor legal here

Originally Posted by PeeCoffee

I grew up in a tribe that dictated a ritual ceremony for cutting the foreskin of males must be carried out when the baby is 8 days old.
Of course food is served to the guests attending the ceremony after the cutting.

Yea, we've attended the odd bris - my godmother and my eldest daughter's godmother are Jewish.
An odd thing.

It should be properly criminalised in the UK and the offenders punished.

"Reaching out" and "Educating" are clearly not working for the swathe of East Africa that lives in the East End.

Threaten to take away their fucking benefits and watch them toe the line.

Originally Posted by panama hat

Yea, we've attended the odd bris - my godmother and my eldest daughter's godmother are Jewish. An odd thing.

You are one lucky guy ; therefore, you now possibly know how they make that tiny hole in the center of a bagel.

FGM has been illegal in Egypt since 2008, and apparently numbers have dropped since then.

In 2014, 92.3% of women aged 15 to 49 who have been married were subject to some form of FGM, according to government statistics contained in the launch documentation. That figure is down from 95.8% in 2005.

Egyptian activists fear female genital mutilation initiative will fall short | Global development | The Guardian

Originally Posted by kingwilly

An example is that FGM has several forms, from complete mutilation to a ceremonial 'cut' that actually is not a cut at all.

And while I personally do not like any form of FGM, we need to be careful arguing about a ceremony that does not cut or harm at all and lumping it into complete removal of vulva and the sewing of the vagina up.

Are you joking?
A ceremonial 'cut'? WTF.

Originally Posted by Cujo

Originally Posted by kingwilly

An example is that FGM has several forms, from complete mutilation to a ceremonial 'cut' that actually is not a cut at all.

And while I personally do not like any form of FGM, we need to be careful arguing about a ceremony that does not cut or harm at all and lumping it into complete removal of vulva and the sewing of the vagina up.

Are you joking?
A ceremonial 'cut'? WTF.

Not at all.

In some cases the midwife will scratch the surface of the clitoris with her fingernail. And while I wouldn't want that done to my daughter, it's nothing like the East African ceremonies.

In some cases a non sharp knife is laid on top of the clitoris without making an incision or drawing blood.

Both Of these Are Defined As FGM, both are common in Indonesia. And may be done at birth with or without the parents consent or even knowledge.

^ Point missed.
'ceremoniail' FGM legitimizes the real thing. It acknowledges the act FFS.
It's as bad as the real thing.

This practice can be easily stopped in Western countries, any female found with FGM shall be deported along with her extended family, and her brothers and father castrated.

Originally Posted by wasabi

This practice can be easily stopped in Western countries, any female found with FGM shall be deported along with her extended family

I guess a retarded post had to emerge sooner or later.

Yes, wasabi - punish the woman who was subjected to mutilation as a child. God God, you are thick.

Originally Posted by Cujo

^ Point missed.
'ceremoniail' FGM legitimizes the real thing. It acknowledges the act FFS.
It's as bad as the real thing.

I'd agree with Cujo. If the female wants to be 'cut' at the age of 18 then let them, but continuing the legitimisation of the act on babies or young girls - even against their parent's will - sends the wrong signal.
In western countries it is also a crime - assault/battery etc...

Transcending religion:

The practice predates religion and has no religious significance in either Islam nor Christianity. However, communities of both faiths continue to circumcise their daughters, believing it will cleanse or purify the girl, ensure she remains sexually chaste, prevent cheating on her future husband and keep her behaving well.
http://www.newsweek.com/fgm-rates-ha...us-2004-304773

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Half of girls under 11 years old in Indonesia are circumcised,

Here we go again, half is a ridiculously exaggerated number. I think real harm is done to the cause with inflated figures.

Originally Posted by Cujo

'ceremoniail' FGM legitimizes the real thing.

Yes, it does.

Originally Posted by Cujo

It's as bad as the real thing.

Disagree. And here you are really missing the point. No traction at all will be made when you lump all of these communities together.

Originally Posted by panama hat

I'd agree with Cujo. If the female wants to be 'cut' at the age of 18 then let them, but continuing the legitimisation of the act on babies or young girls - even against their parent's will - sends the wrong signal.

Again, agreed.

We are not arguing about FGM, rather methods of combatting FGM.

from Herman's link above....

Indonesian authorities tried to ban FGM 10 years ago, but the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) issued a fatwa saying that female circumcision was part of religious practice.

In response, the Health Ministry softened its stance, issuing regulations that said the practice should only be done by medical professionals in a noninvasive way that did not injure girls and women. However, in 2013, the ministry revoked its regulations on female circumcision.

The ministry’s director general of mother and child health and nutrition supervision, Anung Sugihantono, said the government did not acknowledge female genital mutilation as a medical practice.

The reasoning behind it is that the government acknowledges female circumcision only as a part of Indonesian culture, according to him. The government’s definition of female circumcision was “an act of scratching the skin that covers the front of the clitoris without injuring the clitoris”.

National Commission on Violence Against Women (Komnas Perempuan) vice chairwoman Budi Wahyuni said her commission saw the practice as sexual violence toward children and called on the government to be more consistent in regulating FGM.

Budi said they could limit the ability to orgasm, thus it was vital for individuals to gain a thorough understanding of genital cutting before undergoing a procedure.

“With no sanctions and no visible harms, parents will opt to circumcise their daughters so that they can grow up as a sholihah [pious woman],” she explained.

- See more at: FGM in Indonesia hits alarming level | The Jakarta Post

It requires a concerted effort on both the education and legal fronts to eradicate the practice.
Educating women, whether it is a tribal or religious practice can only be achieved by a global carrot and stick approach.

The practice is barbaric and where practiced, the countries concerned should be subjected to economic sanctions if they refuse to litigate and provide women with equal education opportunities.
They can also be incentivised by economic assistance and greater international trade and academic opportunities for all.
Educating women is the only way to move forward on so many fronts as well as eradicating inhumane gender based practices.