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Old 28-03-2014, 10:07 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
You can speculate all you like about the underlying political forces that drove the coup. It was an internal political matter.
US mouthpiece video'd saying that the US "invested $5B" in destabilising Ukraine. Hardly internal when it was promoted externally ... by the usual suspects...
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Old 28-03-2014, 10:19 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Nations interfering politically with other nations is not in the same league as grabbing chunks of land. It is geo-political buffoonery. For it to be seen to go unpunished is asking for much more trouble down the line. The worlds largest nations like Russia should be setting an example not playing cowboys and indians.
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Old 29-03-2014, 08:11 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 9999
No, the difference is the south does not have 90% support for the separatists. I'm not sure the figures but I doubt it's even half.
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Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
^Exactly.
Disagree some provinces in the south would vote yes by a majority but debating the percent who would vote yes is not the point. Point, it would be considered illegal under UN law.

Putin is dangerous but no more so than any other head of state who has the power via force to annex parts of a sovereign nation. Preventing such an action is one of the fundamental reasons the UN exists.

Don't have to look very hard however to see the UN is a miserable failure in effectively preventing or punishing illegal acts.
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Old 29-03-2014, 08:27 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Norton
Don't have to look very hard however to see the UN is a miserable failure in effectively preventing or punishing illegal acts.
But why? Could it be that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
Preventing such an action is one of the fundamental reasons the UN exists.
...is not actually the reason why it exists at all, but rather something more sinister?

the track record of "UN Intervention" show clearly that as long as it favours a few key players, they will act. If it doesn't, they will not.

UN, IMF, World bank, WTO .... all part and parcel of the same thing, and none of them are what they pretend to be.
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Old 29-03-2014, 08:39 AM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gilbert
the track record of "UN Intervention" show clearly that as long as it favours a few key players, they will act. If it doesn't, they will not. UN, IMF, World bank, WTO .... all part and parcel of the same thing, and none of them are what they pretend to be.
Agree. All more evidence UN is a miserable failure.
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Old 29-03-2014, 10:29 AM   #106 (permalink)
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It appears that Putin's Black Belt may just have turned a sickly shade of pink




Putin calls Obama to discuss Ukraine



Russia's Vladimir Putin has telephoned President Barack Obama to discuss the US proposal for a diplomatic solution to the crisis in Ukraine.

Mr Obama suggested that Russia put a concrete response in writing, the White House said in a statement.

According to the Kremlin, Mr Putin suggested examining how the situation could be stabilised.

Russia's annexation of Crimea from Ukraine has sparked international condemnation.
In the hour-long phone call, the US president urged Mr Putin to avoid the build-up of forces on the Russian border with Ukraine.

"President Obama underscored to President Putin that the United States continues to support a diplomatic path... with the aim of de-escalation of the crisis," the White House said in a statement.

"President Obama made clear that this remains possible only if Russia pulls back its troops and does not take any steps to further violate Ukraine's territorial integrity and sovereignty."



Mark Mardell reports: ''It does sound like the Russians are backing away from further conflict''



The two leaders agreed that their foreign ministers would meet soon to discuss the next steps.

The US proposal, developed in consultation with Ukraine and other European countries, includes the deployment of international monitors to protect the rights of Russian speakers in Crimea, and the return of Russian troops there to their bases.

Mr Obama received Mr Putin's call in Saudi Arabia - the latest leg of a trip which also took the US president to Europe where the Ukraine crisis dominated discussions.

The Kremlin said in a statement that the Russian president drew Mr Obama's attention to "the continued rampage of extremists" in Kiev and various regions of Ukraine.

It said these individuals were "committing acts of intimidation towards peaceful residents, government authorities and law enforcement agencies... with impunity".

Mr Putin suggested examining possible steps the global community could take to help stabilise the situation, the Kremlin statement said.

He also expressed concern at an "effective blockade" of Moldova's separatist region of Trans-Dniester, where Russia has troops.

Pro-Russian politicians there have sent a request asking to join the Russian Federation.

Nato fears Russia could use its forces in Trans-Dniester to invade the breakaway region.



President Putin welcomed military leaders to the Kremlin on Friday


Meanwhile in New York, the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said he had been assured by President Putin that the Russian leader "had no intention to make any military move" into Ukraine.

Russia's reported troop movements near Ukraine's eastern border - described as a "huge military build-up" by Nato - has triggered fears that Mr Putin's interest in Ukraine is not limited to Crimea.

The BBC's North America Editor, Mark Mardell, said Friday night's phone call could indicate tentative progress towards a diplomatic solution - just when fears were growing in the West that Russia could be about to stage an invasion of eastern Ukraine.

The US and its allies have imposed sanctions on members of Mr Putin's inner circle, and threatened to take action to target the Russian economy, in response to Moscow's actions in Crimea.

Moscow formally annexed Crimea after the predominantly ethnic Russian region held a referendum which backed joining Russia.

Kiev and the West condemned the vote as "illegal".

The move followed months of street protests, which led to the overthrow of pro-Kremlin Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in February.




BBC News - Putin calls Obama to discuss Ukraine
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Old 29-03-2014, 01:44 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65
America has a vast reserve of natural gas and has authorized a seaport in Oregon to begin shipping gas to Europe
Why would America ship gas to Europe from a Pacific Ocean port?
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Old 29-03-2014, 01:52 PM   #108 (permalink)
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I do not believe any one man has any power including Putin, Obama or Hugh Hefner let alone being singularly dangerous.

I believe most significant global events are orchestrated by one committee that sits in the Hague and these single human beings (as above) are just mouth pieces for this highly protected, extremely powerful and potentially dangerous group of people.
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Old 29-03-2014, 02:07 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loy Toy View Post
I do not believe any one man has any power including Putin, Obama or Hugh Hefner let alone being singularly dangerous.

I believe most significant global events are orchestrated by one committee that sits in the Hague and these single human beings (as above) are just mouth pieces for this highly protected, extremely powerful and potentially dangerous group of people.
Yeah, right.
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Old 29-03-2014, 02:18 PM   #110 (permalink)
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The crimea is gone. Russia will not give it back, the West is not starting WW3 to save territory for the Ukraine. When the Russians did this in Georgia no one flinched. Rusians noted this and have used the same strategy. The Baltic States must be Shitting themselves.

In the long term whilst fracking could kill the world, it does produce shitloads of gas and oil. Russia, meaning Puttin, is very aware that it is his time to strike now or never. Putin knows he has nothing to fear. He is the closest thing to Stalin since Stalin. No one can survive a political attack on him. He knows that and so do most Russians,

Will The Ukraine be attacked, not unless they attack the Crimea. which they will not. Russia sells gas because it needs hard cash. It is still a backwater, when it comes to industrial production and Putin knows that if it switches off the Gas supplies it will also destroy its ability to develop as an economic power. My opinion is that after much sabre rattling the new borders will become accepted and the status quo will continue.

I think Putin knows that any more expansion will lead to crippling sanctions, not short term but long term. Europe buys its gas from Russia because it is easy and cheap. There is lots of gas world wide. Europe is just know starting to realize how much is under their own feet. (fracking) Russsia in the middle and long term must keep its customers happy or else all the gas it has is not going to make it any money. It's customers will look to securing supplies from other means if it looks like it can be used a s a weapon against their survival.
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Old 29-03-2014, 03:07 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loy Toy View Post
I do not believe any one man has any power including Putin, Obama or Hugh Hefner let alone being singularly dangerous.

I believe most significant global events are orchestrated by one committee that sits in the Hague and these single human beings (as above) are just mouth pieces for this highly protected, extremely powerful and potentially dangerous group of people.
100% true.
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Old 29-03-2014, 03:37 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Lick
It appears that Putin's Black Belt may just have turned a sickly shade of pink
hardly, he is simply being courteous and getting closer to Obama before he can go for the kill

I suspect Ukraine will have an energy crisis that will force it to join Russia without a single fire shot
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Old 29-03-2014, 03:44 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Lick
It appears that Putin's Black Belt may just have turned a sickly shade of pink
hardly, he is simply being courteous and getting closer to Obama before he can go for the kill

I suspect Ukraine will have an energy crisis that will force it to join Russia without a single fire shot
They already have one now - IMF demands gas prices up by 50% as one of the many conditions they put in place so that they can ensnare them with debt.

The obama PR release is very one sided and barely mentions Putins questions about the US backed nazi scum currently terrorising the country.
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Old 29-03-2014, 03:57 PM   #114 (permalink)
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The IMF is about to rape Ukraine.
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Old 29-03-2014, 03:57 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
IMF demands gas prices up by 50%
it's actually going to be 74% up with more to come in the following months,

this will without doubt violate their agreement with GazProm, above all when that hike is to finance direct payment to the IMF in exchange of a loan. I can't see Putin letting the Americans getting paid out of the cheap gas from Ukraine, that will be daylight robbery.

Obama is going to face a harsh reality when his foreigner policies house of cards is going to collapse.
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Old 29-03-2014, 04:57 PM   #116 (permalink)
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The Merkins have a saying I like - putting lipstick on a pig. Or somesuch.

It all works the same way. Your local municipal laws, your state laws, your national laws, your international laws - whatever that may be.

The big boys make the laws and institutions so it plays according to what suits them. The game is grab for myself and keep competition out.

Basically, them 'laws', by and large, are no more than the lipstick on the pig.

It all works sort of ok as long as there is no other stronger player around to challenge these 'laws'. The little suckers generally stfu and plays by your rules, else you whack them.

The big boys who make the rules of course don't have to stick to them. That would be stupid. Defeat the object of the exercise.



Now someone comes along and kicks sand in the big boys eyes, and all the lil suckers go running around excitedly shouting 'You can't do that!!!'. Instead of taking a lesson from it that the world after all this time still doesn't work according to the rules they abide by. And never will.


Sheesh. What you gonna do? Cry to mommy? Go to war? You ain't got the guts. And Putin knows it. It shows for all to see.

Strength is still the only real deterrent in this world, not some fanciful rules. Those only work on the sheep. And the weenies are ruled by the meek and 'disadvantaged'. Societal suicide.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:18 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pickel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65
America has a vast reserve of natural gas and has authorized a seaport in Oregon to begin shipping gas to Europe
Why would America ship gas to Europe from a Pacific Ocean port?
The US is a net importer of Gas. Any gas sent abroad will mean higher prices for US citizens.

A port may have been authorised but how many years will it take to be built, if in fact it is. I am assured the local to this seaport may drag out the "authorisation" procedure. Even if it is Russia will always be able to offer Europe cheaper gas that the US.

It is well that Putin puts his requests in writing and ensures that the US puts there reponses in writing. Some may remember the US verbal "promises" to Gorbachev regarding NATO encroachment on Russia, many will remember the denials that the "Missile defence" ring around Russia was to protect the US and Europe against Iranian missiles, Now it seems all of the new NATO countries are demanding similar "defences systems" to protect them from Russia.

That's without laughing my arse off at Looper's fiction or worse, belief.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:29 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pickel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65
America has a vast reserve of natural gas and has authorized a seaport in Oregon to begin shipping gas to Europe
Why would America ship gas to Europe from a Pacific Ocean port?

Actually there are two ports, and both are ready for action, one in Oregon, the other in Louisiana. The Oregon port would mostly export to Asia as reportedly Gazprom is planning a pipe line to service Asia, the Louisiana port obviously to Europe.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:49 AM   #119 (permalink)
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^ Would the gas be sourced via fracking by people like the Koch brothers if the US became a major gas exporter?
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Old 02-04-2014, 10:49 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Lick
he US president urged Mr Putin to avoid the build-up of forces on the Russian border with Ukraine
Doesn't Barry read the papers? He's been withdrawing troops from the border- job done.
Maybe he just wants to offer Barry & State a face saving way out- they've only looked like fools so far.
One things for sure- Crimea isn't on the table, that's part of russki again. And sanctions will not just damage Russia- they will damage Europe, and the Nato alliance
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:01 AM   #121 (permalink)
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He's been withdrawing troops from the border- job done.
He is telling Angela Merkel he's removing some troops. Saying and doing are two different things. Intel will confirm soon enough. Or not.
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:29 AM   #122 (permalink)
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^ Would the gas be sourced via fracking by people like the Koch brothers if the US became a major gas exporter?

H


The gas from the US is already being sourced through fracking,I have no idea and don't care, who is doing the franking. We are close to only having oil from fracking, you might as well get used to it.
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:39 AM   #123 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Norton
Intel will confirm soon enough
Funny thing about intel. It is information pumped out by, well, the worlds biggest collection of liars (the intelligence community), fed through the PR machines of political parties, and handed to the public through a press and media that just take the governments press release, add a few pictures and Big Font words, all neatly bundled for the people to swallow.

About as reliable as a bar girl - you know they are lying their arse off, but for some reason people like to believe that this time she is telling the truth.

If Putin has some smarts, he would keep lots of soldiers on with 24 / 7 video surveillance to record the false flag operatives who will be dashing across with their rockets and sniper rifles, killing a load of Ukrainians, blaming it on the Russians just to get the nice profitable war the war mongers like Kerry want.
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:57 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Funny thing about intel.
Intel is like beauty. All in the eye of the beholder. Of course Putin proclaiming troops are being removed doesn't make it so either.

Troops on the border or not, Putin has got what he wants. The Crimea. Too much risk going too far. We won't be seeing Russian troops invading Ukrainian in near future. Let things cool off a bit then maybe.
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Old 02-04-2014, 01:02 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Let things cool off a bit then maybe.
Lets just hope that the external influencers that provoke these things will agree. Doubt they will though.
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