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Old 28-03-2014, 04:12 PM   #76 (permalink)
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^ Death toll Crimea - 2.
Death toll Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan - 1 million? 2?

Define barbarous for me again....
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Old 28-03-2014, 04:19 PM   #77 (permalink)
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The moral rightness or wrongness of the Iraq war is a complex and separate issue. It was not about territorial acquisition anyway (although Iraq did originally invade and annex Kuwait to start the whole thing off).

Either way it does not make Russia's neanderthal behaviour any less wrong.
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Old 28-03-2014, 04:29 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper View Post
The moral rightness or wrongness of the Iraq war is a complex and separate issue. It was not about territorial acquisition anyway (although Iraq did originally invade and annex Kuwait to start the whole thing off).

Either way it does not make Russia's neanderthal behaviour any less wrong.
Why do you value a small chunk of land, most of which is probably the private property of Russians over millions of wasted lives and indiscriminate murder?

That the Crimeans chose union with Russia is of no importance, they could just as easily have chosen Independence, they were already Autonomous. Why is Russias support of their democratic expression in the face of an illegal coup and illegitimate government any different to the US and NATO interventions?
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Old 28-03-2014, 04:34 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Crimeans are not free to choose what they want to do if they part of a nation state. They must have a dialogue with the nation state to negotiate their exit.

Russia used military force to affect the outcome which is also against basic rules of international diplomacy when a region is looking for secession.

I don't see a comparison with Iraq. They are very different situations.
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Old 28-03-2014, 04:40 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Ukraine - Coup, Illegitimate government.

If they are not going to follow their own laws, why should the Autonomous Region of Crimea?
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Old 28-03-2014, 04:48 PM   #81 (permalink)
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It is still an internal sovereign dispute at that stage and none of Russia's business and certainly not grounds for an international land hi-jack.
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Old 28-03-2014, 04:58 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper View Post
It is still an internal sovereign dispute at that stage and none of Russia's business and certainly not grounds for an international land hi-jack.

Sevastapol is Russian and is one of their major national defense assets. Of course civil disruption in Crimea is their business.
They have led the issue to it's ultimate unavoidable destination peacefully.
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Old 28-03-2014, 05:34 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Maybe we should ask the people -

Putin’s approval rating hits 80 percent
Putin’s approval rating hits 80 percent


Ukraine Crisis Hurts Obama Approval Ratings

Overall disapproval of the job Obama is doing ticked up to 59 percent — a record high for his presidency — in the poll released Wednesday.
Now he's hit a new low on international relations — just 40 percent approval.
Poll: Ukraine Crisis Hurts Obama Approval Ratings - ABC News
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Old 28-03-2014, 05:53 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Can't believe in this day and age, with all the illegal activity and atrocities the west has committed on various countries, not to mention the theft of land and resources, people still fall for the west's propaganda bullshit!
the majority of people are retarded and have short memories, can't blame our leaders for taking advantage of such a flaw

but yes, the west is far worse than the CCCP ever was, maybe a sign of what's to come next
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Old 28-03-2014, 06:03 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
If the land is part of a nation state and they are subjects then it is only their decision to make within a legal framework acceptable to the nation state.
Right on bro. Bloody low information libtards the lot of you.
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Old 28-03-2014, 06:31 PM   #86 (permalink)
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the CCCP wasn't that bad, small play in comparison to what the world has become
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Old 28-03-2014, 06:33 PM   #87 (permalink)
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supervising mass murders - check
illegal invasion - check
creating economic collapse - check
press propaganda - check
grandiose leaders - check
organizing genocide - check

so I stand by my words, the "West" world has become far worse than the CCCP era
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Old 28-03-2014, 06:56 PM   #88 (permalink)
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What Russia did was illegal. Comparing it to illegal incursions into sovereign states by othe powers such as the US and the "west" doesn't make it legal.

With full veto power in the UN and no fear sanctions would hurt much, Putin did what he knew he could get away with. Crimea is now part of the Russian Federation. Matters not 90% of the population agree. It's illegal.

Analogy is the south of Thailand. Territory ceded to Thailand way back when. Suppose Malaysia marched in, organized a referendum and when 90% voted yes Malaysian Parliament made them part of Malaysia. Illegal. Difference is Malaysia wouldn't get away with it because they are a small weak country. The entire world would be all over them. Including Russia.

The UN has some wonderful rules and treaties signed by just about all but when a powerful nation determines they can get away with an illegal act they will do it.

Doesn't make it legal though, does it?
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Old 28-03-2014, 07:01 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Grabbing territory from neighbouring countries by massing tanks on the border and then railroading a sham poll in 2 weeks is not acceptable international diplomacy by modern standards.
I look forward to the next Israel thread and trust that you will full heartedly condemn them....except of course that your western media propaganda rags you read will have informed you that poor little israel are the victim there.

Staggering that so many people can be so naive. The west, most notably the US, have been using war, debt enforced by the world bank and IMF, the henious world trade organisation (which is a mechanism to grow US market share around the world, and nothing more), and countless other nefarious bodies and activities, and yet when a load of russian people in Crimea, that used to be in Russia say "Stuff europe, we want to return to the fold" people like you follow the herd and get all fighty about it.

Wake up and smell the instant coffee pal. If Scotland say "Stuff you England, we're setting up shop by ourself" will you reject that as well?

Mind boggles.

You don't think Israel has a right to defend it's self?
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Old 28-03-2014, 07:19 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Necron99
Sevastapol is Russian and is one of their major national defense assets. Of course civil disruption in Crimea is their business.
Sevastopol was not recognised by the international commnity as Russian terrirtory. My understanding is that they lease the port facility. That does not entitle them to interfere in Ukraines national affairs. They are tenants not owners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
Putin’s approval rating hits 80 percent Putin’s approval rating hits 80 percent
That is not surprising. Cowboy leaders often ride waves of national popularity. It does not make their actions right or defensible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
Russia was simply taking back what was traditionally Russian
In an act of brazen land theft.
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Old 28-03-2014, 07:35 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gilbert View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
What happened in Crimea is not an acceptable process by modern diplomatic standards.
No, what happened in Crimea is not acceptable to the laughable standards set by the proponents of US hegemony and the rags / media which are their PR tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Do you not think Ukraine is entitled to reparations after this blatant theft?
No. They are not getting anything other than huge amounts of debt to the US and their proxy, the IMF, who in return for this debt will then be forced to adopt internal and foreign policy penned by washington.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
I am not a fan of Israel but I am not sure what the parallels are. You are saying Israel's behaviour compares with Russia's?
Not at all. What you need to look at is the worlds reaction to both situations. All Russia did was allow a people, who voted to join Russia, to rejoin Russia. The global reaction to this is massive (as seen by your posts which are inspired / coming directly from the PR machines of the west). Imagine what would happen if russia started raining down white phosphurous shells on ukrainian schools? What would the world do then? What did the world do when israel did it, with US made shells, purchased with US tax payers money? They did fuck all.

It is hypocrisy in the extreme, and ultimately has nothing to do the the US or the EU.

But you fail to point out, the vote was not done until after Russian troops were in Crimea, and had surrounded most Ukrainian military installations.

You also fail to point out the shelling Israel was taking from the Gohlan heights before the 1967 take over of the Gohlan heights, and the continuing rocketing by the Pallestians.
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Old 28-03-2014, 07:48 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
The poll was illegal because Ukraine did not sanction it and the land in question was part of the nation of Ukraine.
but you apparently back a us led, nazi induced uprising and overthrow of a pro russian democratically elected government.

All this talk of Legal is bull really - who sets the laws? Whose country is it? Politicians and the uber rich would like you to believe the country belongs to them, but in reality, it does not. The politicians are supposed to represent the people. In Crimea, the people literally owned that land, they decided otherwise and frankly it is their decision to make. The US and EU only wanted to pull ukraine into the debt spiral to further enclose Russia and China within their warmongering net of doom - Russia told obama and his pay masters to get stuffed. Good for them.

Best you go back to reading the beano and chasing korean Milfs, mate.

Using your logic you seem to be saying that if the people living on a particular piece of land in whatever country they then have the right to pick any country they choose to join, I don,t think so.
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Old 28-03-2014, 08:05 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
Quote:
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Grabbing territory from neighbouring countries by massing tanks on the border and then railroading a sham poll in 2 weeks is not acceptable international diplomacy by modern standards.
are you that gullible and ignorant ? this is not different from what we are advocating, the actions of GW Bush and Obama have destroyed what was left of the UN Charter core principles,

Russia was simply taking back what was traditionally Russian,

Obama outraged play is nothing more than a plot to isolate Russia from its EU clients

quite cynical and dishonest, not fair game by either party, and perfectly legitimate for Putin to retaliate against what is a blatant manipulation by the West usual suspects, that is the US and their European black traitorous Puddle, the UK

You don' think America organizing sanctions on Russia has more to do with making Putin think twice before any more land grabs.

I also noticed someone asked what America selling gas to Europe had to do with this. America has a vast reserve of natural gas and has authorized a seaport in Oregon to begin shipping gas to Europe, as Putin relies heavily on income from it's sale of natural gas to Europe the competition will have quite an adverse effect on the Russian economy
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Old 28-03-2014, 08:38 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65
I also noticed someone asked what America selling gas to Europe had to do with this. America has a vast reserve of natural gas and has authorized a seaport in Oregon to begin shipping gas to Europe, as Putin relies heavily on income from it's sale of natural gas to Europe the competition will have quite an adverse effect on the Russian economy
It won't. Russian LNG arrives in Europe through pipelines. It's currently impossible for US ships to compete with that. Russia exports 500 Million Cubic Meters of gas a day to Europe, there is no way the US could match that at the same price. Even if they could it will be over a decade before the US can build enough refineries and terminals to match Russian supplies.

Russia could turn every Crimean Tartar into car seat-covers and souvenir ashtrays but as long as the gas keeps flowing and the price stays low the EU will turn a blind eye.
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Old 28-03-2014, 09:10 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norton
Suppose Malaysia marched in, organized a referendum and when 90% voted yes Malaysian Parliament made them part of Malaysia. Illegal. Difference is Malaysia wouldn't get away with it because they are a small weak country.
No, the difference is the south does not have 90% support for the separatists. I'm not sure the figures but I doubt it's even half.
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Old 28-03-2014, 09:11 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Old 28-03-2014, 09:13 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DrB0b
Russian LNG arrives in Europe through pipelines. It's currently impossible for US ships to compete with that
That's why Obama is getting into war mode. These puppet twats like obama that work for corporate paymasters have only one option when they are losing a battle.
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Old 28-03-2014, 09:19 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
Russia was simply taking back what was traditionally Russian
In an act of brazen land theft.
Land that was stolen from Russia and placed in a made-up entity, possession of which on what had been a reasonable agreement (very much so on Russia's) would not have come into question until western powers aligned with right-wing Ukrainian nationalists to overthrow an elected government through a violent coup on Russia's doorstep- in Russia's "borderland," which is what "Ukraina" means.

The new government in Ukraine has more to fear from the nationalist Banderistas of Svoboda/Right Sector than they do from the Russians. The Ukrainian nationalists- people such as Oleh Tyahnybok, chum of US Senator McCain- are the only serious impediment to a peaceful resolution to this conflict, and the government of Ukraine appears to be trying to rein them in. It's absurd to think Russia is going to stand for a government led by the likes of Tyahnybok and his fascist party, or even including anti-Russian fascists as part of a coalition, on their border.
BBC News - Ukraine leader Turchynov warns of far-right threat
Ukraine's interim President Olexander Turchynov has condemned the ultra-nationalist Right Sector, saying the group is bent on "destabilisation".

Right Sector activists blocked the parliament (Rada) building in Kiev on Thursday night and smashed windows.

They blamed the interior minister for the killing of a Right Sector leader.
---
It is pretty obvious what "destabilisation" means here.
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Old 28-03-2014, 10:00 PM   #99 (permalink)
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You can speculate all you like about the underlying political forces that drove the coup. It was an internal political matter. The fact is that an international land grab is orders of magnitude more serious than political subterfuge. National boundaries are taboo. Putin has stepped over a geographical and a metaphorical line. The world cannot sit back and let this oafish hooligan get away with his antics. I am disappointed that Obama is saying 'if he does anything else then...'. He has already done it and the world should send a message.
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Old 28-03-2014, 10:06 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robuzo
Ukrainian nationalists- people such as Oleh Tyahnybok, chum of US Senator McCain
Thanks for that.

Pieces of a puzzle people.

The time for battle draws near.
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