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Old 28-03-2014, 11:55 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Military interventions are not land grabs for personal gain.
Oh my god. This is about as naive a statement as I have ever read on here. Care to explain Iraq?
Military interventions involve sending troops to foreign countries to achieve political outcomes. You can discuss the moral justification of any specific intervention as long as you want but they are not land grabs.

Orchestrating a grab of a chunk of land from a neighbouring country and declaring it your sovereign territory is an entirely different thing. Putting lipstick on it with an illegal poll does not legitimise this nonsense.
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Old 28-03-2014, 12:04 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Orchestrating a grab of a chunk of land from a neighbouring country and declaring it your sovereign territory is an entirely different thing. Putting lipstick on it with an illegal poll does not legitimise this nonsense.
Where do you sit in relation to israel and Palestine then?
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Old 28-03-2014, 12:15 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I have not read much about it. If it involves a sovereign nation grabbing land from a neighbouring nation and it happened since the end of the cold war then I would say it is equally as bad as Russia's actions.
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Old 28-03-2014, 12:32 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
I have not read much about it. If it involves a sovereign nation grabbing land from a neighbouring nation and it happened since the end of the cold war then I would say it is equally as bad as Russia's actions.
Perhaps go and have a read about it; it might open up your mind about what the US and the west is really up to when you see their approach to israel v's their approach to Ukraine.
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Old 28-03-2014, 01:00 PM   #55 (permalink)
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What is your version of events in Israel/Palestine?

It might make an interesting discussion if there really are parallels with the recent annexation of Crimea.
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Old 28-03-2014, 01:28 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Nope - I think that has been done to death on most forums, with some believing the lapdog yank and AIPAC BS version as pushed by the media owned by certain individuals with very clear allegiances (even the head of BBC news openly says he is pro israel).

The people in Crimea had a vote. They decided they wanted to be part of Russia. One should imagine that the people there wanted protection from the US sponsored nazi thugs who are terrorising Ukraine right now and believed that being part of Russia is a lot better than the enforced internal policies that Ukraine will have to concede as they have IMF debt forced upon them....
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Old 28-03-2014, 01:42 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The people in Crimea had a vote. They decided they wanted to be part of Russia.
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Old 28-03-2014, 01:42 PM   #58 (permalink)
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What happened in Crimea is not an acceptable process by modern diplomatic standards.

Big nations cannot go around grabbing chunks of land from small neighbours and justify the behaviour by running illegal polls within foreign nations sovereign territory. It is just not on. They should have pursued a diplomatic process which probably should have involved Crimea pursuing independence first and then joining Russia later which would be a process I would expect to take many years, not 2 weeks. Alternatively Russia should have approached Ukraine with a view to buying Crimea if Ukraine was amenable. Why should Ukraine have to put up with having their sovereign land stolen in a raid?

Do you not think Ukraine is entitled to reparations after this blatant theft?

I looked at a brief history of Israel/Palestine. I am not a fan of Israel but I am not sure what the parallels are. You are saying Israel's behaviour compares with Russia's?
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Old 28-03-2014, 01:53 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
What happened in Crimea is not an acceptable process by modern diplomatic standards.
No, what happened in Crimea is not acceptable to the laughable standards set by the proponents of US hegemony and the rags / media which are their PR tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Do you not think Ukraine is entitled to reparations after this blatant theft?
No. They are not getting anything other than huge amounts of debt to the US and their proxy, the IMF, who in return for this debt will then be forced to adopt internal and foreign policy penned by washington.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
I am not a fan of Israel but I am not sure what the parallels are. You are saying Israel's behaviour compares with Russia's?
Not at all. What you need to look at is the worlds reaction to both situations. All Russia did was allow a people, who voted to join Russia, to rejoin Russia. The global reaction to this is massive (as seen by your posts which are inspired / coming directly from the PR machines of the west). Imagine what would happen if russia started raining down white phosphurous shells on ukrainian schools? What would the world do then? What did the world do when israel did it, with US made shells, purchased with US tax payers money? They did fuck all.

It is hypocrisy in the extreme, and ultimately has nothing to do the the US or the EU.
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:00 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
All Russia did was allow a people, who voted to join Russia, to rejoin Russia
The poll was illegal. Russia strong-armed the situation with tanks massed on the border. It is primitive bullyboy nonsense and totally illegal by the standards of international law. You cannot organise illegal polls in regions of neighbouring countries with your forces massed at the border and then raise flags and claim it is legitimate. It is nonsense and Russia should pay a heavy price for destabilising the region and reparations for land theft.
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:05 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper View Post
What happened in Crimea is not an acceptable process by modern diplomatic standards.

Big nations cannot go around grabbing chunks of land from small neighbours and justify the behaviour by running illegal polls within foreign nations sovereign territory. It is just not on. They should have pursued a diplomatic process which probably should have involved Crimea pursuing independence first and then joining Russia later which would be a process I would expect to take many years, not 2 weeks. Alternatively Russia should have approached Ukraine with a view to buying Crimea if Ukraine was amenable. Why should Ukraine have to put up with having their sovereign land stolen in a raid?

Do you not think Ukraine is entitled to reparations after this blatant theft?

I looked at a brief history of Israel/Palestine. I am not a fan of Israel but I am not sure what the parallels are. You are saying Israel's behaviour compares with Russia's?

The Crimea has never been Ukrainian. It was an autonomous region that has always been socially, economically and culturally Russian.
This is just a natural correction of Kruschevs earlier mistake in giving the Ukrainians nominal control of the region.

While it is easy to compare to Danzig and the Sudetenland, If we have learned nothing over the last century, it is that artificial borders that deny ethnic groups natural cohesion will always fail.
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:17 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
The poll was illegal.
A population of an area decide "we are going to have a vote about our land".

How can that be illegal? Who do you think has the right to tell the people of a land that they can not decide, freely, their own future?
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:24 PM   #63 (permalink)
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There are countless instances of ethnic communities existing across borders from nations they might consider home.

National borders are always going to be artificial to some extent.

National boundaries will often enclose a mixture of ethnic groups.

As time passes and people migrate borders may not align so well with ethnic populations.

If boundaries are to be moved it should involve lengthy discussion and negotiation between the parties involved which includes the nation that will lose the land.

Russia is a large country with significant military might. That does not give it a right to move its boundaries around as it sees fit based on the nearby residency of ethnic populations.

Land-grabs are caveman politics and an embarrassment to the aggressing nation.

The poll was illegal because Ukraine did not sanction it and the land in question was part of the nation of Ukraine.
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:41 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Russia has no business railroading a sham poll in a foreign country to window dress a land-grab just because a community of Russians live there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
If the rest of the world started grabbing chunks of neighbouring countries because a few of their ethnic live there and there is a nice sea-port the world would return to a semi permanent state of war as existed in centuries past.
You make it sound like Russia went in on the grounds that there's a handful of Russians in Crimea. Crimea is as good as Russian, and I don't know where calling bs on this poll is coming from and insinuating Russia rigged it, it's completely believable that 90% of Crimeans identify more with Russia than Ukraine and would prefer to be part of Russia.
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:48 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
All Russia did was allow a people, who voted to join Russia, to rejoin Russia
The poll was illegal. Russia strong-armed the situation with tanks massed on the border. It is primitive bullyboy nonsense and totally illegal by the standards of international law. You cannot organise illegal polls in regions of neighbouring countries with your forces massed at the border and then raise flags and claim it is legitimate. It is nonsense and Russia should pay a heavy price for destabilising the region and reparations for land theft.
Quit this before you appear even dumber, best you back up entirely since you have no clue. The Crimea held a referendum about independence from the Ukraine in January 1991, and regained the status as autonomous Soviet Republic before the dissolution of the USSR. August 1991, Ukraine became independent and annexed the Crimea. February 1992, the Crimean parliament declares the 'Republic of Crimea', and independence from the Ukraine again in May 1992. The Ukrainian parliament threatens with military intervention a week later, and the planned for August 1992 referendum about the independence from the Ukraine is called of. Russia was in this time in no shape to intervene on behalf of the self-determination of the Crimean people.
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:53 PM   #66 (permalink)
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The size of the ethnic population or the direction of the vote is not relevant.

What is being questioned here is the process by which Crimea went from being part of Ukraine to being part of Russia.

The process was totally illegal and the world should make an example of Russia to prevent the wrong impression being given about the acceptablity of their actions.

1. Massing forces on the border of a neighbour prior to inciting a poll for seccession is not acceptable.

2. Organising an illegal poll not sanctioned by the neighbouring country is not acceptable.

3. Leaving the neighbouring country out of the discussion about what is to happen to part of their territory is not acceptable
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:53 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
The poll was illegal because Ukraine did not sanction it and the land in question was part of the nation of Ukraine.
but you apparently back a us led, nazi induced uprising and overthrow of a pro russian democratically elected government.

All this talk of Legal is bull really - who sets the laws? Whose country is it? Politicians and the uber rich would like you to believe the country belongs to them, but in reality, it does not. The politicians are supposed to represent the people. In Crimea, the people literally owned that land, they decided otherwise and frankly it is their decision to make. The US and EU only wanted to pull ukraine into the debt spiral to further enclose Russia and China within their warmongering net of doom - Russia told obama and his pay masters to get stuffed. Good for them.

Best you go back to reading the beano and chasing korean Milfs, mate.
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:53 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Russia strong-armed the situation with tanks massed on the border.
Didn't Russia mass it's build up on the border after the Crimea 'land grab'? I'm not entirely sure, but I thought Russian special forces went in and took the airport, then Crimea voted into Russia, then they did the tanks on border massing move. I don't see how troop deployment on the Ukraine border has anything to do with the annexing of Crimea. Are you saying Russian troops where at the door step so all the Crimeans got scared, felt bullied, and voted to be part of Russia?
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Old 28-03-2014, 02:58 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Land-grabs are caveman politics and an embarrassment to the aggressing nation.
So are Coups.
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Old 28-03-2014, 03:03 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9999 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Russia strong-armed the situation with tanks massed on the border.
Didn't Russia mass it's build up on the border after the Crimea 'land grab'? I'm not entirely sure, but I thought Russian special forces went in and took the airport, then Crimea voted into Russia, then they did the tanks on border massing move. I don't see how troop deployment on the Ukraine border has anything to do with the annexing of Crimea. Are you saying Russian troops where at the door step so all the Crimeans got scared, felt bullied, and voted to be part of Russia?
I believe the Russian troop build up was a threat to prevent Ukraine using force to prevent the illegal proceedings taking place on their own territory and the loss of their land.
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Old 28-03-2014, 03:08 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Land-grabs are caveman politics and an embarrassment to the aggressing nation.
So are Coups.
Touché
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Old 28-03-2014, 03:10 PM   #72 (permalink)
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"Putin blames the west for rejecting his efforts at Crimea compromise" - Guardian Weekly. What efforts? Oh, I am so (faux) surprised my national media did not report this effort.
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Old 28-03-2014, 03:13 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
In Crimea, the people literally owned that land, they decided otherwise and frankly it is their decision to make.
If the land is part of a nation state and they are subjects then it is only their decision to make within a legal framework acceptable to the nation state.
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Old 28-03-2014, 03:26 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilbert
In Crimea, the people literally owned that land, they decided otherwise and frankly it is their decision to make.
If the land is part of a nation state and they are subjects then it is only their decision to make within a legal framework acceptable to the nation state.
Until a bigger, more powerful nation state steps in.
US, Russia, China all act with impunity. There are no 'laws', they act as they see fit and dare anyone to act against them. Basing your argument on the fact of a land grab is baseless. Do the hundreds of thousands of dead care that NATO or the US didn't take any land?
Might is right.
Thus has always been and thus it always will be.


Tell me, was there any act of self determination or legal process when administration of the Crimea was given to the Ukraine in 54?
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Old 28-03-2014, 04:02 PM   #75 (permalink)
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In 2014 there are accepted rules around how developed nation states deal with each other.

Using your might to grab land from neighbours is barbarian behaviour. It should be opposed as strongly as possible. The common wealth of the globe depends on us treating each other in a civilised manner.

Russia had other more options at its disposal for pursuing the issue.

US may have the military might to act with impunity but it does not grab land from other countries and declare it part of the USA. It is not acceptable behaviour any more.

Russia should be made to go and stand in the corner with the dunce hat on its head.
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