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Old 18-07-2017, 01:56 AM   #2701 (permalink)
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By that standard a large chunk of Glasgow would want to be part of Ireland.
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Old 18-07-2017, 01:57 AM   #2702 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
You cannot go abroad and hold an illegal unofficial referendum in a territory belonging to another nation and then claim that you are legally relieving them of their land.
Not to mention suppressing the opposition, anyone not in favor of the referendum.If they had pressed for an internationally supervised referendum before invading they could hardly be denied. But they did not because they knew that they would not win.
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Old 18-07-2017, 07:13 AM   #2703 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
You cannot go abroad and hold an illegal unofficial referendum in a territory belonging to another nation and then claim that you are legally relieving them of their land.

This is obvious to even a cretin.
The referendum (granted by the constitution) was held by people of that own territory.

What's wrong on that?

Was the referendum in Scotland illegal? Catalonia in Spain?

Remember what happened in Kosovo? A referendum?

When two do the same thing it's not always the same, is it?

This is obvious to even a cretin.
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Old 18-07-2017, 07:14 AM   #2704 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeovers
Not to mention suppressing the opposition, anyone not in favor of the referendum.
Any link?
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Old 18-07-2017, 11:34 AM   #2705 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
Was the referendum in Scotland illegal? Catalonia in Spain?
1. No, because it is a country and it was done under constitutional law.

2. Yes because it isn't a country and has no legal standing.

Quote:
Remember what happened in Kosovo? A referendum?
What happened in Kosovo was that Milosevic took away its autonomous constitutional powers and committed genocide, so it was taken away from him to stop him murdering thousands of people.

Quote:
When two do the same thing it's not always the same, is it?

This is obvious to even a cretin.

Invading a country without reason because you feel like it, and then holding a referendum is against international law you muppet.

Like I said, it would be like Ireland invading parts of Glasgow and then holding one.

Can you really not see the difference?

If not, then yes, you are a cretin.
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Old 18-07-2017, 11:48 AM   #2706 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
You cannot go abroad and hold an illegal unofficial referendum in a territory belonging to another nation and then claim that you are legally relieving them of their land.

This is obvious to even a cretin.
The referendum (granted by the constitution) was held by people of that own territory.

What's wrong on that?
To be legal any referendum on any issue of secession has to be done with the approval of the state that stands to lose the land.

Otherwise it is just flimsy camouflage for a hostile land grab.

When will the blinkered putin cheerleaders with their fingers in their ears concede this obvious point?
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Old 18-07-2017, 11:55 AM   #2707 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
You cannot go abroad and hold an illegal unofficial referendum in a territory belonging to another nation and then claim that you are legally relieving them of their land.

This is obvious to even a cretin.
The referendum (granted by the constitution) was held by people of that own territory.

What's wrong on that?
To be legal any referendum on any issue of secession has to be done with the approval of the state that stands to lose the land.

Otherwise it is just flimsy camouflage for a hostile land grab.

When will the blinkered putin cheerleaders with their fingers in their ears concede this obvious point?
They won't, they're like trumpanzees, they'll believe any old shit their hero says.
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Old 18-07-2017, 12:26 PM   #2708 (permalink)
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Luckily, there is always a dictator anywhere, so some have to invade.

However, sometimes the plans have to be changed:
US Planned to Turn Crimea into Military Base Against Russia

The information coming to the surface now shows that if Crimea stayed as part of Ukraine, it would have become a huge NATO/US military base. I seriously doubt that the people of the Crimea would have stood for that, but if such a thing did happen, it would have meant WWIII as Russia would never allow it. From this perspective it’s especially clear why NATO, USA and EU were so shocked that Russia decisively accepted Crimea back. They already considered it theirs.

The city of Sevastopol is the prized possession. This is one of the best harbors in the world. But the entire Crimea is of huge strategic importance – first and foremost, if you want to attack Russia. In addition, Crimea is important for the control over other countries, including Iran and Turkey. As they say, he who controls Crimea, controls the Black Sea.

At least one hospital in Crimea’s capital Simferopol and at least one school in Sevastopol were targeted by the US/NATO just recently. They were planning on turning the hospital into a base for their troops after a massive renovation. One of the high schools (a gymnasium) in Sevastopol the Kiev authorities were about to sell to the US to be repurposed as a school for spies, targeting Russia. It was planned that the kids going to that school would be learning languages and spying techniques since an early age.

https://futuristrendcast.wordpress.c...gainst-russia/
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Old 18-07-2017, 12:31 PM   #2709 (permalink)
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And some plans have to be downsized:
Hunter Biden’s new job at a Ukrainian gas company is a problem for U.S. soft power
May 14, 2014
Think about that when you read the announcement that Vice President Biden's son, Hunter Biden, has accepted a position on the board at Ukraine's largest private gas firm. According to a news release posted Tuesday, the vice president's son would join the board of Burisma Holdings. The Yale-educated lawyer would be in charge of the company’s legal unit, the release said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.944f75d50f71

But few months later:
Biden's son discharged from Navy after testing positive for cocaine

The discharge of Biden, a 44-year-old lawyer and managing partner at an investment firm, was first reported by the Wall Street Journal on Thursday. He confirmed the report in a statement to CNN.

"It was the honor of my life to serve in the U.S. Navy, and I deeply regret and am embarrassed that my actions led to my administrative discharge. I respect the Navy's decision. With the love and support of my family, I'm moving forward," he said.
Biden was commissioned as an ensign in May 2013 and assigned as a public affairs officer in a Norfolk, Virginia-based reserve unit. A month later, he tested positive for cocaine, and he was discharged in February, according to the report.

Biden's son discharged from Navy after drug test - CNNPolitics.com
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Old 18-07-2017, 12:33 PM   #2710 (permalink)
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Totally plausible. You don't have to be a NATO ally to host a US military base but it certainly helps. Ukraine doesn't have the resources to utilise the strategic importance of Crimea but the US would certainly want to.

I have no issue with Russia taking Crimea fairly or otherwise.. I think it is an astute move on their part.
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Old 18-07-2017, 01:01 PM   #2711 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by birding
No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany’s western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO’s expansion.
Agreements without a formal deal....in other words no deal.


Quote:
. Baker pledged in Moscow on May 18, 1990, that the United States would cooperate with the Soviet Union in the “development of a new Europe.” And in June, per talking points prepared by the NSC, Bush was telling Soviet leaders that the United States sought “a new, inclusive Europe.
Sounds like Moscow underplayed what a 'new inclusive Europe' and 'cooperate' meant to Washington. Not seeing how this justifies Putin's actions in the Crimea.

I see so as nothing was signed it is OK for the US to break their work given in good faith at a negotiating table.

Tell us who can be trusted Russia who kept their side of the negotiated bargain or the US who broke their word.
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Old 18-07-2017, 01:05 PM   #2712 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
Totally plausible. You don't have to be a NATO ally to host a US military base but it certainly helps. Ukraine doesn't have the resources to utilise the strategic importance of Crimea but the US would certainly want to.

I have no issue with Russia taking Crimea fairly or otherwise.. I think it is an astute move on their part.
It might be astute, and it's only been punished with a slap on the wrist, but it is *still* a violation of international law.

And you know what happens if you don't stand up to bullies.
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Old 18-07-2017, 01:06 PM   #2713 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
And some plans have to be downsized:
Hunter Biden’s new job at a Ukrainian gas company is a problem for U.S. soft power
May 14, 2014
Think about that when you read the announcement that Vice President Biden's son, Hunter Biden, has accepted a position on the board at Ukraine's largest private gas firm. According to a news release posted Tuesday, the vice president's son would join the board of Burisma Holdings. The Yale-educated lawyer would be in charge of the company’s legal unit, the release said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.944f75d50f71

But few months later:
Biden's son discharged from Navy after testing positive for cocaine

The discharge of Biden, a 44-year-old lawyer and managing partner at an investment firm, was first reported by the Wall Street Journal on Thursday. He confirmed the report in a statement to CNN.

"It was the honor of my life to serve in the U.S. Navy, and I deeply regret and am embarrassed that my actions led to my administrative discharge. I respect the Navy's decision. With the love and support of my family, I'm moving forward," he said.
Biden was commissioned as an ensign in May 2013 and assigned as a public affairs officer in a Norfolk, Virginia-based reserve unit. A month later, he tested positive for cocaine, and he was discharged in February, according to the report.

Biden's son discharged from Navy after drug test - CNNPolitics.com
As thrilling as it is, I don't see where Vlad was involved. Did he supply the charlie?
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Old 18-07-2017, 01:07 PM   #2714 (permalink)
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It is damn good Crimea is part of Russia again- it was never really part of Ukraine.
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Old 18-07-2017, 01:13 PM   #2715 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
Totally plausible. You don't have to be a NATO ally to host a US military base but it certainly helps. Ukraine doesn't have the resources to utilise the strategic importance of Crimea but the US would certainly want to.

I have no issue with Russia taking Crimea fairly or otherwise.. I think it is an astute move on their part.
It might be astute, and it's only been punished with a slap on the wrist, but it is *still* a violation of international law.

And you know what happens if you don't stand up to bullies.
If you want violations of international law I can give you a whole page of them by the US starting in Syria.

Yes Harry the rest of the world needs to stand up to the bullies in Washington before they destroy any more countries.
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Old 18-07-2017, 01:19 PM   #2716 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
Totally plausible. You don't have to be a NATO ally to host a US military base but it certainly helps. Ukraine doesn't have the resources to utilise the strategic importance of Crimea but the US would certainly want to.

I have no issue with Russia taking Crimea fairly or otherwise.. I think it is an astute move on their part.
It might be astute, and it's only been punished with a slap on the wrist, but it is *still* a violation of international law.

And you know what happens if you don't stand up to bullies.
The precedent was set by the US invasion of Iraq.

Has anyone been punished for what is in retrospect a clear violation of sovereignty and international law.

In comparison the lack of casualties and historical precedent of Russian sovereignty makes the retaking of Crimea seem almost dignified.

As much as you would like to, you cannot judge Russia's action in a vacuum.
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Old 18-07-2017, 01:57 PM   #2717 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birding
If you want violations of international law I can give you a whole page of them by the US starting in Syria.
Especially, when somebody tears the UN Charter:


Never mind, if you have good friends:












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Old 18-07-2017, 02:18 PM   #2718 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birding
I see so as nothing was signed it is OK for the US to break their work given in good faith at a negotiating table.
Yep. No formal agreement means exactly that.

Was the deal with the USSR or Russian Federation, no doubt some leeway there for the US lawyers to argue too.
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Old 18-07-2017, 02:44 PM   #2719 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sabang View Post
It is damn good Crimea is part of Russia again- it was never really part of Ukraine.
exactly, worth reminding for all our anti-Putin snowflakes
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Old 18-07-2017, 02:47 PM   #2720 (permalink)
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Old 18-07-2017, 03:23 PM   #2721 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo
I have no issue with Russia taking Crimea fairly or otherwise.
At last - a tacit admission from a Putin cheerleader that maybe Russia's grabbing land might be other than fair and above board.

The rules of engagement in the 21st century prohibit overt land-grabbing. Everybody knows this. The new framework of engagement represents global progress and a reduction in the amount of war and violence the world has to endure.

That is why, when monkeys like Putin break these rules of engagement and drag the world back scores of decades with their Neanderthal bullying, that they need to be stood up to.

Playing games with other countries political processes (like the US were accused of in Ukraine) is not good but it is not in the same ballpark as Russia's ridiculous dangerous incendiary war-gaming in the Black Sea. A proportional response to the US shenanigans might be something like fooling around with US political processes (as they have done with Trump).

But blatant warmongering and land-grabbing is caveman antics that drag the world back a century in international rules of engagement.

That is the reason why Putin is dangerous.

He must never be allowed to get away with this and his 21st century anachronistic land theft must never be forgotten or forgiven. It is an insult to the world that Russia should hope to have its antics accepted. Russia must be taken to task and punished by the international community until major reparations to Ukraine are offered along with an apology to Ukraine and the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo
The precedent was set by the US invasion of Iraq.
Laughably feeble comparison.
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Old 18-07-2017, 03:26 PM   #2722 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
The rules of land grabbing in the 21st century prohibit democratic Referendum.
There, fixed that for ya.
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Old 18-07-2017, 04:07 PM   #2723 (permalink)
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The trajectory of world politics and rules of engagement has been consistently in the direction of violence reduction for decades and centuries.

We take baby steps but slowly over time those steps add up and the statistical measure of violence and war goes down.

Progress is cemented by putting in place frameworks of engagement which reduce violence and war.

Any country that is accepted into the elite groups like the G20 are tacitly agreeing to abide by those frameworks.

Russia's illegal 19th century style land grab is not just selfish. It is slap in the face to the progress in violence reduction that the world is slowly but steadily working its way towards and a terrible example to set to developing countries who aspire for membership of the elite.

Vladimir Putin must be made to pay for dragging the world backwards with his thuggish brutality.
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Old 18-07-2017, 04:27 PM   #2724 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by birding
I see so as nothing was signed it is OK for the US to break their work given in good faith at a negotiating table.
Yep. No formal agreement means exactly that.

Was the deal with the USSR or Russian Federation, no doubt some leeway there for the US lawyers to argue too.
OK so it is now confirmed that if no formal agreement is signed the US cant be trusted to keep a promise.

I am sure Russia, China, North Korea and most of the rest of the world already know this and dont trust the US to keep their word on anything.
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Old 18-07-2017, 04:39 PM   #2725 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birding View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
Totally plausible. You don't have to be a NATO ally to host a US military base but it certainly helps. Ukraine doesn't have the resources to utilise the strategic importance of Crimea but the US would certainly want to.

I have no issue with Russia taking Crimea fairly or otherwise.. I think it is an astute move on their part.
It might be astute, and it's only been punished with a slap on the wrist, but it is *still* a violation of international law.

And you know what happens if you don't stand up to bullies.
If you want violations of international law I can give you a whole page of them by the US starting in Syria.

Yes Harry the rest of the world needs to stand up to the bullies in Washington before they destroy any more countries.
I am aware of the illegality of, say, the Iraq invasion.

However, two wrongs do not make a right.
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