Thread: The Ignorance and fear of Islam

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by ENT

Sumerian civilisation
Indus Valley civilisation
Babylonian civilisation
Persian & Medean civilisation(s)
Egyptian civilisation

None of the above are either Islamic or Arab.

Wrong. As I pointed out, they are indeed pre-Islamic, originating thousands of years before Mohammed. As I also pointed out, these civilisations emanated from and occupied much of what is now the Islamic world and Middle East, and were the birth of civilisation as we know it. The Egyptian, Sumerian and Babylonian (Iraq now) civilisations were/are Arabic too, unless by 'Arabic' you mean the very narrow definition of 'Arabian' (from the arabian peninsula)- in which case I would ask why do you persist in calling a Palestinian an 'Arab'? (they are, of course, much more closely related to the Israeli's than to the Bedouin/arabians) The Indus Valley civilisation was in now northern Pakistan, and of course Persians/Iranians are Aryan- so not Arab, quite correct there.

I quite like these discussions, because it clearly shows to the average person (who really has not studied world history, apart from a vague nationalised mythology), how integral and seminal the middle eastern civilisations, both before and after the rise of Islam, have been to our own 'western' history and the history of civilisation and humanity in general.

Basically, I enjoy seeing Islamophobes (and all other Haters) shoot themselves in the foot.

It's nice to disagree with a gentleman, there is no opprobrium necessary.

Sorry mate, the Semitic tribes include all peoples of the Arabian peninsula and Egypt as well as Jordan, Lebanon and Israel, and people in Syria of Aramaic descent, ....all are Semites.

I often call the Palestinians Arabs because a large proportion of them did in fact migrate into Palestine from Yemen and Arabia, and the migration was encouraged by the Sharif of Mecca during the earlier part of last century.

PS. The "birth of civilization as we know it", that you allude to, was somewhere around the Zagros Mountains, (not between the Tigris and Euphrates as some insist) and spread with the Neolithic farmers firstly northward then during the later Dryas period southward towards Greeece, where 6,000 years ago early agriculture and animal husbandry took hold, along with open sea fishing, accounted for by tuna bones found in their middens in southern Greece.

Cattle culture evolved about then to lead to dairy product use, along with pottery, a pre-requisite for milk storage.
After that, higher fire temperatures were achieved for metallurgy.

Egyptians, and anyone north of the the Gulf of Oman are not Arabs,they'd be insulted if you called them Arabs. Arabs properly are the descendants of Ishmael, all originating from Arabia.

North of the Bosphoros was settled by central Eurasians, from whom the Sumerians were descended, then from them the Babylonians.

Semites are descended (traditionally speaking) from Abraham, who came from "Ur of the Chaldeas' in other words from Uruq (or Iraq), where the town of Uruq still exists as does the town of Bab-El, Babel of OT fame, the tower falling etc. It was in fact a great library, and its collapse during an earthquake led to the OT story of god's wrath upon the people for building a tower to reach the heavens. (Understand that the heavens were in fact the utter limit of knowledge at that time.)

Indus valley/Harapan civilization extended down the wesr coast of India, and did not exist in the area now known as north Pakistan. There were two migratory waves into the area, one coming from the north, the Arians from central Asia who brought in cattle culture, the Vedas and Brahminism, and the earlier Indus folk, darker skinned and descendants of whom are the Tamil folk.

Still no Arabs nor Semites there mate.

Originally Posted by ENT

Originally Posted by sabang

Originally Posted by ENT

Sumerian civilisation
Indus Valley civilisation
Babylonian civilisation
Persian & Medean civilisation(s)
Egyptian civilisation

None of the above are either Islamic or Arab.

Wrong. As I pointed out, they are indeed pre-Islamic, originating thousands of years before Mohammed. As I also pointed out, these civilisations emanated from and occupied much of what is now the Islamic world and Middle East, and were the birth of civilisation as we know it. The Egyptian, Sumerian and Babylonian (Iraq now) civilisations were/are Arabic too, unless by 'Arabic' you mean the very narrow definition of 'Arabian' (from the arabian peninsula)- in which case I would ask why do you persist in calling a Palestinian an 'Arab'? (they are, of course, much more closely related to the Israeli's than to the Bedouin/arabians) The Indus Valley civilisation was in now northern Pakistan, and of course Persians/Iranians are Aryan- so not Arab, quite correct there.

I quite like these discussions, because it clearly shows to the average person (who really has not studied world history, apart from a vague nationalised mythology), how integral and seminal the middle eastern civilisations, both before and after the rise of Islam, have been to our own 'western' history and the history of civilisation and humanity in general.

Basically, I enjoy seeing Islamophobes (and all other Haters) shoot themselves in the foot.

It's nice to disagree with a gentleman, there is no opprobrium necessary.

Sorry mate, the Semitic tribes include all peoples of the Arabian peninsula and Egypt as well as Jordan, Lebanon and Israel, and people in Syria of Aramaic descent, ....all are Semites.

I often call the Palestinians Arabs because a large proportion of them did in fact migrate into Palestine from Yemen and Arabia, and the migration was encouraged by the Sharif of Mecca during the earlier part of last century.

PS. The "birth of civilization as we know it", that you allude to, was somewhere around the Zagros Mountains, (not between the Tigris and Euphrates as some insist) and spread with the Neolithic farmers firstly northward then during the later Dryas period southward towards Greeece, where 6,000 years ago early agriculture and animal husbandry took hold, along with open sea fishing, accounted for by tuna bones found in their middens in southern Greece.

Cattle culture evolved about then to lead to dairy product use, along with pottery, a pre-requisite for milk storage.
After that, higher fire temperatures were achieved for metallurgy.

Egyptians, and anyone north of the the Gulf of Oman are not Arabs,they'd be insulted if you called them Arabs. Arabs properly are the descendants of Ishmael, all originating from Arabia.

North of the Bosphoros was settled by central Eurasians, from whom the Sumerians were descended, then from them the Babylonians.

Semites are descended (traditionally speaking) from Abraham, who came from "Ur of the Chaldeas' in other words from Uruq (or Iraq), where the town of Uruq still exists as does the town of Bab-El, Babel of OT fame, the tower falling etc. It was in fact a great library, and its collapse during an earthquake led to the OT story of god's wrath upon the people for building a tower to reach the heavens. (Understand that the heavens were in fact the utter limit of knowledge at that time.)

Indus valley/Harapan civilization extended down the wesr coast of India, and did not exist in the area now known as north Pakistan. There were two migratory waves into the area, one coming from the north, the Arians from central Asia who brought in cattle culture, the Vedas and Brahminism, and the earlier Indus folk, darker skinned and descendants of whom are the Tamil folk.

Still no Arabs nor Semites there mate.

Opprobrium or no opprobrium, so you're saying the bloody Israelis are not responsible?

Originally Posted by ENT

I often call the Palestinians Arabs because a large proportion of them did in fact migrate into Palestine from Yemen and Arabia, and the migration was encouraged by the Sharif of Mecca during the earlier part of last century.

Funny how DNA studies disagree with you then???? DNA evidence states that the Palestinians have been there for basically ever.They were the Canaanites, Jews,Christians etc,they never went away,they just changed religions. Also the British survey of Palestine disagrees with you as well.You have been reading too many zionist monkey websites again.

Post references to the proof found in DNA studies.

^^^^ Responsible for what?

Israelis didn't get into the picture until 1946.

So your ref supports the idea that "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes
of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure
and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews."

Meaning that Jews and Arabs have a common lineage.

We already know that. Now what about DNA proof that Arabs have always been there in Palestine.

From your reference;
"The first millennium AD was marked by the immigration of Arab tribes, reaching its climax with the Moslem conquest from the Arabian Peninsula (633–640 AD)."

So a migration of Arabs into Palestine started pretty much as soon as Islam started to spread.

Originally Posted by ENT

So your ref supports the idea that "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes
of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure
and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews."

Meaning that Jews and Arabs have a common lineage.

We already know that. Now what about DNA proof that Arabs have always been there in Palestine.

From your reference;
"The first millennium AD was marked by the immigration of Arab tribes, reaching its climax with the Moslem conquest from the Arabian Peninsula (633–640 AD)."

So a migration of Arabs into Palestine started pretty much as soon as Islam started to spread.

You obviously missed the point as usual. It clearly states that the Jews and Palestinians are closely related, as in they have both been there in that area for thousands of years.

Here you go:

What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations.In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes - what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants.

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

You were wrong..Move on.

From your post # 233; " It clearly states that the Jews and Palestinians are closely related,",...wot I sed 2.

As in, "Meaning that Jews and Arabs have a common lineage" (from my post # 232).

Are you getting confused?

Originally Posted by ENT

From your post # 234; " It clearly states that the Jews and Palestinians are closely related,",...wot I sed 2.

As in, "Meaning that Jews and Arabs have a common lineage" (from my post).

Are you getting confused?

You claimed that a large portion of them arrived in Palestine early last century. You have been proven wrong yet again by DNA studies. You are fighting a losing battle as usual.

Where do the DNA studies prove me wrong?

Originally Posted by ENT

Where do the DNA studies prove me wrong?

They clearly state that the Palestinians have been there for thousands of years,they were the Canaanites, Jews, Christians..they just changed religion, they never went anywhere. You claimed this:

Originally Posted by ENT

I often call the Palestinians Arabs because a large proportion of them did in fact migrate into Palestine from Yemen and Arabia, and the migration was encouraged by the Sharif of Mecca during the earlier part of last century.

The DNA studies I posted state you are wrong. Get over it...


What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations.In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes - what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants.
http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/...-jews-and.html

Also the British survey of Palestine says you are wrong as well.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/A...Story6626.html

Here's a graph relating to the demographics of the area of the time discussed.

So, the Jews and other Palestinians were there all along, but largely called themselves Xtians for a long time, but got Islamified during the 7th century.

Still no Arabs (people from Arabia) had migrated there much until far more recently, even if the place was Islamicized.

Originally Posted by ENT

Here's a graph relating to the demographics of the area of the time discussed.

and? It just shows huge Jewish immigration to Palestine, so? You are trying to prove that there was huge Muslim immigration and you cannot because I have already posted the British survey of Palestine and it proves you wrong.

Originally Posted by ENT

So, the Jews and Palestinians were there all along,

Thats what I said, thats what I proven, your claims were wrong.

Rubbish, it shows that both Jewish and (so called) Arab migration into the area has kept on increasing especially during the 1941 - 1950 period (for Arabs), dropping in the 1970s now rising again.

The reason being the job opportunities in Israel for Arabs.

Originally Posted by Primo

the Palestinian population

... are mongrels, always have been. Much like the Jews and Europeans (brits in particular)- where many a tribe died out and are forgotten, we have not- and persist to this day (for better or worse). They are Real. Via mongrelism, same like the hebes, same like the brits. The average Palestinian is some 22% Arabian.

Palestine stands and stood at the confluence of ancient trade routes- the rest is mostly common sense. They have Hebrew, Canaanite, Roman, Arabic, Turkish blood in them. To name just a few. Genetically, they are about as complex as the Hebrews, to whom they are closely related.

It is fashionable now to look upon the area of Palestine as having been 'primitive' or (ludicrously) unpopulated. This is far from the case.

Originally Posted by ENT

The reason being the job opportunities in Israel for Arabs.

Being used for target practice by the IDF doesn't really count as a job.

Originally Posted by Eliminator

don't like religion of ANY sort but islam has to be the most infantile of them all. All religions only exist to control the masses. islam goes way beyond that trend and denies any woman any kind of worth in the world. Islam is only for simple minded people with little or NO brain. They cannot think without the koran, absolute stupidity

Plus they seem to dislike gays even more than Southern Baptists so you and your bike would proper fucked if they get power where you live.

If they came from elsewhere, they would have different genes. As it is, they're the same like the Jews', just a modern religion. They stayed in Palestine, while the Jews moved elsewhere for almost 2 millenia. Long enough a time to forfeit the claim to the home country. Would be the same if the Anglo-Saxons claimed the lands they originated from today on authority of a silly old book, and that's not even this long ago.

how can they have the "same genes", when the jews religion doesnt really support marrying non-jews ?

is it possible, that the palestinians were in the first place JEWS, that stayed after christian/muslm conquerings and were forced to convert to islam ?