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Old 03-01-2014, 04:44 AM   #276 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by koman
but then looking at BSnub and his videos from "Real News"
The person interviewed was Chris Hedges he was a graduate of Harvard and was a respected foreign correspondent for the NYT for 15 years winning a Pulitzer prize for his coverage of the war on terror. Hardly a "kook" as you seemed to insinuate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
I'm trying to figure out if you left wing types just hate the super rich
The super rich are a lying, conspiring, out of touch group of people who are obsessed with hoovering up as much wealth as possible and doing it at the expense of the working class. So yes we hate them. As far as someone who works hard and lives with integrity while becoming successful more power to them. But the chances of upward mobility have deteriorated dramatically in the US and anyone that disputes that is either an idiot or completely out of touch with reality.


Koman you have a very narrow and naive view. In another thread you praise the surging stock market trumpeting its climb. What you refused to acknowledge is the real reason the market has been jumping is due to the artificial stimulation of corporate stock buy backs. Corporations putting their money into buying back their own stock is not a sign of a healthy economy. But you could care less because today you have more money in your trading account.
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Old 03-01-2014, 04:54 AM   #277 (permalink)
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'Redistribution'- hey, sounds good- how of much of my stuff do you want?
Well, the entitlement-mentality folks will take everything you have - bring you down to their level. Equal-opportunity misery is the core of Socialism!
There are some things I don't quite understand, if you are against entitlements, how comes you entitle your wifes to run off with half your wealth? How comes you conservative darlings live in the house of the parents until you are 30 or 40, and you are entitled to do so and have them feed you until the age of 27 assuming your regulations are the same as in federal Germany. I'm kind of specialist on things communist, and can attest that none of those absurdities existed there.
Hmmm... we're entitled to live in our parents' house until we're 40, but they stop feeding us at 27- I don't like the sound of that...

I didn't live with my parents anywhere near that long- the daily commute between New York and Japan/Thailand would have been a bitch.
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:07 AM   #278 (permalink)
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This is what happens when the majority of the people of USA are convinced to vote against their own interests. The political arena and society are owned by the very wealthy. They even have the middle class arguing in their favour, saying that the poor are lazy, unlucky, or uneducated, and therefor deserve their lot in life. But their day is coming to an end. The nation is divided and that will bring it to its knees.
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:08 AM   #279 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsnub
Koman you have a very narrow and naive view. In another thread you praise the surging stock market trumpeting its climb. What you refused to acknowledge is the real reason the market has been jumping is due to the artificial stimulation of corporate stock buy backs. Corporations putting their money into buying back their own stock is not a sign of a healthy economy. But you could care less because today you have more money in your trading account.
I gather that you don't participate in all this stock buying and investment nonsense then.....but continue to hate it and revile those who manage a bit of capital gain by getting involved. Did you know that anyone....yes even you BSnub can actually buy stock and enjoy the same yield rate as those filthy rich people.....who for the most part have become rich by doing just that? (Sometimes they lost a lot too by the way....just saying... )

You guys talk like someone who is complaining about the plane leaving without them, after they didn't bother to show up at the airport...

Now BSub...listen carfully. Rush out today and buy a few selected bank stocks.....it will change your life...
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:26 AM   #280 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
I gather that you don't participate in all this stock buying and investment nonsense then
I have stock that was grated to me by former employers and have some limited investments that I manage with a tradeking account. That said I refuse to buy stock in companies I feel have reprehensible business practises. Even though I could easily make money I could care less. There are more important things in life then the size of ones bank account.

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Originally Posted by koman
You guys talk like someone who is complaining about the plane leaving without them
A very cliched statement. The person who thinks that money is the only standard by which a person is judged. I truly feel pity for the vacant souls who's life is so empty that the only thing they have to fill the void is money.


Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
Now BSub...listen carfully. Rush out today and buy a few selected bank stocks.....it will change your life
I think I will not. I have a moral compass that will not allow me to do that. Besides I dont want to change my life. I have all I need and more then most. But what is most important to me has nothing to due with money. You see I am the type of person that may have wealth but would never show it. The only real indulgance I allow myself is a swiss watch. It used to be my vintage Porsche but that is gone now too.
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:52 AM   #281 (permalink)
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Well FFS BSnub, invest in ethical companies. Obama is a big supporter....stay with green energy and stuff like that. Look how well Solyndra did....

...anyway, I don't understand why you think I, or anyone else who supports the system would just be interested in the money. I've never been motivated by money very much. In fact I quit a couple of high paying positions because I was more motivated by interesting and challenging work that just making money.

You, like so many others have allowed yourself to get sucked into this belief than corporations, rich people or even those with a bit of drive and ambition are all evil and all of the moral compasses have been reserved for the so called "working class".

My own roots are very much "working class" but it was not until I dragged myself out of their mindset and jointed the "corporatists" that I learned what work was all about.

PS Strangely enough, I attended an "elite" school too....just like your friend in that video. My experience of the very rich kids, was that they were just like any other kids and they treated me just fine even though my parents did not even own a car.
That was in the country they used to call Great Britain however....maybe American rich kids are different...
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Old 03-01-2014, 06:59 AM   #282 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by koman
You, like so many others have allowed yourself to get sucked into this belief than corporations, rich people
So companies like Koch Industries, Haliburton, Monsanto etc are doing good for the country and its people? Or are they doing the opposite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
even those with a bit of drive and ambition
I love how conservatives like you throw comments like that into your argument. You make the false assumption that because someone rejects materialism that they must lack ambition and drive. Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is that there happens to be a gap the size of the grand canyon between those ambitious, driven hard workers and the super rich. No comparison.


Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
My own roots are very much "working class" but it was not until I dragged myself out of their mindset and jointed the "corporatists" that I learned what work was all about.
WOW! Just WOW! I had to take a step back and reread this comment as I couldn't believe my eyes. Let me tell you something. Your average "working class" person works tenfold harder then some entitled ass in an office who knocks off at noon on Friday and takes regular two martini lunches. I would know I have spent time in both environments working for some of the most successful tech companies here in Seattle, and I have never seen such waste and excess as I have seen in corporate America. I myself once had expense accounts and freely spent my companies money. I was just doing what everyone else was doing with tons of money flowing, catered "working lunches", dinners at the most expensive sushi bars and steak houses ya right I was there and know all about it. It was a joke and totally unnecessary.

The poor slub in the trenches gets none of that. They work their fingers to the bone for less and less. They are constantly the target of the upper class when budgets need to be trimmed it doesn't come out of those corporate expense accounts no it comes out of the blue collar workers already meager pay and benefits.

You displayed your typical pompous arrogance making such an ignorant and out of touch statement. These types of comments are typical of the division between the boardroom and the plant floor. A pampered, lazy executive that is arrogant enough to think that he actually matters and makes a difference when in truth he does next to nothing.

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Old 03-01-2014, 07:09 AM   #283 (permalink)
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Old 03-01-2014, 07:46 AM   #284 (permalink)
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^ Look who shows up to dumb things down.
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Old 03-01-2014, 08:06 AM   #285 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bsnub
WOW! Just WOW! I had to take a step back and reread this comment as I couldn't believe my eyes
I'm not in the least surprised that you find it so hard to believe.....but it's true never the less. You accuse myself and others of having a "narrow" view of the world.....and then continue to demonstrate almost daily that your own views are not just narrow, they are like the needle stuck in the record groove on an old gramophone record... maybe if somebody hits you a good smack on the head it will pop out and into another groove....just like the old records...

You always cite the same individuals and the same companies.....as if all people with a bit of money are like the Koch brothers.....all banks are just like Goldman Sachs....and that you're clearly very limited exposure to the corporate world is somehow typical. In your world all management is lazy, corrupt and stupid....all the "workers" are salt of the earth types, working their asses off for the good of all...and without and ounce of greed or self interest individually or collectively...

Hint....the most arrogant, corrupt and nasty people I've ever had the misfortune to confront were not corporate executives....they were the union negotiators and bosses who are supposed to represent the interests of their "workers".

There are obviously some managers and executives who fit your description, but can anyone be stupid enough to believe that they are all like that? Most of the ones I know and have worked with are good family men, who work very hard, carry a heavy load of responsibility and for the most part produce excellent results which benefit everyone who works around them. That's why they are there....that's why they are well paid....and without them and the corpoations they work for, your "workers" would all be unemployed.....unless they get a government job where they can live on taxpayers money and really do nothing of use, or produce anything for anybody.
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Old 03-01-2014, 08:58 AM   #286 (permalink)
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It is only fair to point out that America's notoriously greedy rich are not representative of all of them- wealthy people like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and George Soros have openly decried the tax policy and naked greed supporting it, that has changed the once shining beacon on the hill, to a country that many of us in advanced countries such as Australia now feel sorry for. There are some people left in the US for whom 'Patriotism' is not just a bigoted drum to be beaten when you want to go to war, those who oppose of course being automatically slandered as 'unpatriotic'. They are a sidelined minority in the political process, however.

The deterioration during my adult lifetime has been startling to say the least, but the real tragedy is that with the takeover of the US political process by corporate & high net worth interests driven only by greed and a shabby economic 'philosophy' that failed, the US government is nearly powerless to address this important (nay, critical) issue. This is a country where a simple resolution supported by nearly 90% of the people could not even get past the first stage in the Senate, because of lobbying on behalf of narrow corporate interests- in this case, the NRA. Such a country is barely democratic- it does retain the critical institutions, but they have been subverted.

The narrow philosophy supporting this attitude- that everything comes down to self interest, selfishness and greed, has turned full circle and bitten you in the bum. It threatens the very fabric of your society, but not to worry- the 'important people' already have their offshore accounts and chalets, just in case.

There is a certain irony in the fact that those flag/ founding fathers/ constitution bashers on the right refuse to acknowledge the most fundamental US government philosophy of all-
"Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth." - Abraham Lincoln
It has not perished from the earth either- but it seems to have perished in the US. Frankly, as a retired small business owner/ capitalist type myself, I find the enormous growth in poverty and inequality in the US, hand in glove with a deterioration of government finances, and enormous growth in wealth for those already rich, quite appalling. It seems to me that this 'American Patriotism' that many amerkins have a proclivity to shove down your throat, was only ever a scam and a sham.
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Old 03-01-2014, 09:15 AM   #287 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
nd that you're clearly very limited exposure to the corporate world is somehow typical.
Its not limited at all and what I described is typical and while not all encompassing is quite widespread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
In your world all management is lazy, corrupt and stupid
It has been proven time and time again with companies like Enron. Not to say there aren't exceptions but many executives milk their jobs and then when they start to take scrutiny from the Board or shareholders they just bail with their golden parachutes. Happens constantly.


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Originally Posted by koman
Hint....the most arrogant, corrupt and nasty people I've ever had the misfortune to confront were not corporate executives....they were the union negotiators and bosses who are supposed to represent the interests of their "workers".
I figured you would mention something like this. It is rubbish. I will give you a current example. Boeing is trying to cut benefits for its machinists here in Washington. They are trying to cut wages, medical benefits and completely eliminate pensions for new hires. They are doing this in spite of record profits and a $400 billion backlog in orders. The machinists are a big contributor to this success yet the executives are attempting to strip benefits and cut wages rather then reward these machinists. Aviation experts have expressed dismay over this issue saying that the pay and benefits really are a minuscule drop in the bucket and in no way effect profits. These experts can only explain it by saying that the executives must have a vendetta against the machinists union. This is a prime example of incompetent upper management who will put the health of an entire corporation at risk to pursue a vendetta.

So Boeing is threatening to move production of the 777 airliner to another state. They already opened a new plant in South Carolina a "right to work" state with disastrous results. The workers are of such low quality that there is constant quality control and production problems. The SC plant produces less then two planes a month compared to the union plant here in Washingtons 12 planes a month. Pieces of an Air Canada 777 manufactured in SC had parts fall off into an Ontario neighborhood recently.

Once again who is the incompetent one the machinists who work hard and just want to keep their pensions or the malicious upper management?
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Old 03-01-2014, 09:42 AM   #288 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bsnub
Boeing is trying to cut benefits for its machinists here in Washington.
Like pilots, air traffic controllers, meat packers, auto workers, retail & fast food workers, millwrights, coal miners, local government employees, etc etc before that. But don't say that out loud or you will be accused of waging class warfare.
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:15 AM   #289 (permalink)
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Very well put, from an aussie perspective-

Money can often be a sore point for American tourists in Australia, and I've fielded many complaints about how expensive things are. I routinely explain that our minimum wage is close to $20 an hour, that the entire supply chain gets paid properly, and that many workers are unionised in industries that ensure their conditions are good.

... For a country that loves the idea of itself so deeply and passionately, I often wonder how it can hate its own people so profoundly and enduringly.

http://www.alternet.org/hard-times-u...lia?page=0%2C0
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:12 AM   #290 (permalink)
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^ As an American it really boggles my mind. So many people are working for lower wages and benefits but they are usually the first to bad mouth the very unions that could make their lives better. I thought Elches post below was spot on;


Quote:
Originally Posted by elche
This is what happens when the majority of the people of USA are convinced to vote against their own interests. The political arena and society are owned by the very wealthy. They even have the middle class arguing in their favour, saying that the poor are lazy, unlucky, or uneducated, and therefor deserve their lot in life. But their day is coming to an end. The nation is divided and that will bring it to its knees.
There is a concerted effort to pit the middle and lower classes against one another and themselves even. The tactic is deliberate as a divided nation is easier to pluck clean of all its wealth.
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:41 AM   #291 (permalink)
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^ As an American it really boggles my mind. So many people are working for lower wages and benefits but they are usually the first to bad mouth the very unions that could make their lives better. I thought Elches post below was spot on;


Quote:
Originally Posted by elche
This is what happens when the majority of the people of USA are convinced to vote against their own interests. The political arena and society are owned by the very wealthy. They even have the middle class arguing in their favour, saying that the poor are lazy, unlucky, or uneducated, and therefor deserve their lot in life. But their day is coming to an end. The nation is divided and that will bring it to its knees.
There is a concerted effort to pit the middle and lower classes against one another and themselves even. The tactic is deliberate as a divided nation is easier to pluck clean of all its wealth.
That's what I think most non Americans think. And then the suppressed low paid, (think Walmart workers getting paid less than a living wage) workers are the the ones voting for their suppressors.
It doesn't make sense unless most Amaericans are quite thick and easily manipulated.
I mean surely any full time job needs to pay a living wage, otherwise why bother?
Why don't people simply refuse to work these jobs, forcing the companies to pay a living wage.
Why doesn't the government legislate a living minimum wage?
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:43 AM   #292 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bsnub
I figured you would mention something like this. It is rubbish
I mentioned it because it's been MY experience and it happens to be true. You wish to cherry pick individuals and companies that fit your grossly distorted vision of things, and then issue these absurd denials when anyone provides an example that does not.

Anyhow BSnub, I'm not going to belabor this.... you just enjoy that revolution now...ya hear......
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:28 PM   #293 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by koman
it's been MY experience and it happens to be true


jesus wept.

this is all anyone needs to know about the ultra-right wing, corporatist ideology.

"this is how the cards were laid out for me, so it's undeniably true for the other 7 billion people on the planet."

once again, it's "i've got mine...."
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:46 PM   #294 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koman
it's been MY experience and it happens to be true


jesus wept.

this is all anyone needs to know about the ultra-right wing, corporatist ideology.

"this is how the cards were laid out for me, so it's undeniably true for the other 7 billion people on the planet."

once again, it's "i've got mine...."

Huh? WTF are you babbling about? ...
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:57 PM   #295 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koojo
And then the suppressed low paid, (think Walmart workers getting paid less than a living wage) workers are the the ones voting for their suppressors.
This is very true a lot of those people are duped into voting against their own best interests. Many of them vote on issues like religion (abortion), Gun rights and just because fox news says so. Their minds become conditioned to think that the patriotic thing to do is vote for the Republicans and to oppose Unions (because they must be lazy and trying to get something for free). The mentality is really absurd.

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Originally Posted by Koojo
Why doesn't the government legislate a living minimum wage?
The citizens in a city in my state (Seatac) recently voted to raise the minimum wage to $15 hour. The council of the City of Seattle is talking about doing the same. Democrats are also supportive of raising the minimum wage in congress as well but the Republicans oppose it.
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Old 03-01-2014, 01:00 PM   #296 (permalink)
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raising the minimum wage in congress as well but the Republicans oppose it.
for the GOP, corporate profits trump a living wage for actual people

and when these people can't earn enough to survive, the GOP demonizes them for enrolling in public assistance.
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:23 PM   #297 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by raycarey
for the GOP, corporate profits trump a living wage for actual people
This is a fact.


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Originally Posted by raycarey
and when these people can't earn enough to survive, the GOP demonizes them for enrolling in public assistance.
It is really unconscionable. It is a crime.
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Old 03-01-2014, 05:58 PM   #298 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raycarey
for the GOP, corporate profits trump a living wage for actual people
Not a brilliant business strategy. Corporations sell to consumers. The wage earners of the market. No money to buy corporations stuff no decent corporate earnings.

This behavior by corporations can only be because "profit" drives investment in the market.

Then again, maybe not. I'm far from an expert on the subject.

Just seems to my simple mind in matters of economics, when folks don't have a decent wage, they aren't going to buy stuff.
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Old 03-01-2014, 07:00 PM   #299 (permalink)
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Some employers understand that wages become the money of consumers and support adequate minimum wages, until Carter's presidency most did and it used to be called income-driven growth. Far more growth in this era than it has been for the last decade. Large coporations have discovered ways to turn phantastic profits without necessarily having to grow, and to pay higher wages however. Relocation of labour to low-wage countries. Purchasing cartells to force suppliers to demand the lowest possible prices, not good for the wages of their employees. Short-time solutions like last year, not investing profits but buy-backs of the own shares, the higher share prices achieved by this strategy add to the profit. Cost reduction by lowering wages, sacking of a number of employees, and not reinvesting enough profits in product developement. Blackmailing the government to pay subsidies, to grant tax privileges, to destroy unions, to provide protectionism against foreign competitors. Socially responsible entrepreneurs are being forced to take part in this race to the bottom, or break. The only way to turn it around is government intervention, and first to take it back from the billionaires.
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Old 09-01-2014, 03:10 PM   #300 (permalink)
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Here's A Little Reminder - Just 1.1% Of The American Workforce Makes Minimum Wage

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, among those paid by the hour, 1.6 million Americans earned the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour in 2012. (The data for 2013 hasn’t been released yet.) Of these, 484,000 are aged 16 to 19.

So… the Democrats’ big idea on income inequality is one that will increase wages for… 1.1 percent of the workforce.

The federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour, although many states and localities require a higher wage by law. SeaTac, the municipality that surrounds Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, now requires $15 per hour. Democrats want to raise the federal minimum wage to $10.10 per hour, an additional $2.85 per hour.

For a minimum wage employees working 40 hours per week, that’s an additional $114 per week, before taxes.

For a 30-hour-per-week worker, we’re talking about an additional $85.50 per week.

With 1.6 million earning the federal minimum wage, averaging 35 hours per week, this would amount to $159.6 million in higher wages per week. That, times 52 weeks per year, amounts to about $8.2 billion. That may sound like a lot, but we have a $17 trillion economy.

In short, an America with a $10.10 per hour minimum wage would look indistinguishable from the one we see today on the issue of income inequality, as well as the economic aspect that more conservatives focus on, opportunity for advancement. (Getting that first entry-level, minimum wage may get harder as each employee becomes more expensive to the employer.) The workers making minimum wage may very well appreciate the extra $85 to $114 per week, but it’s not going to have much of an impact on their purchasing power. Small companies on tight margins may find the $2.85 per worker per hour cost more difficult to handle, or may raise prices. Of course, if prices go up… that will eat into the budgets of those minimum-wage workers pretty fast, won’t it?

Reminder: 1.1 Percent of U.S. Workforce Makes Minimum Wage | National Review Online

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