Government Health Care

**AntRobertson** · 30-01-2008, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

A relative failure as compared to relative success! Let see if I can spell equivocate correctly

so now it's the American health care system which is responsible for how people live their lives. I would have thought the education system might be flawed.

Once again I'm not altogether sure what point you are trying to make here. Those are misrepresentations of what I have stated.

We can measure objectively and by recourse to fact that, like-for-like, socialised systems of healthcare are better than the privatised system in the US. That's the only important point in play.

Everything else is merely smoke 'n mirrors, red-herrings, and obfuscating.

**Mr Earl** · 31-01-2008, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

We can measure objectively and by recourse to fact that, like-for-like, socialised systems of healthcare are better than the privatised system in the US. That's the only important point in play.

.

In which case you might regale us with such erudite data.

This is Issues after all.

**AntRobertson** · 31-01-2008, 09:15 AM

^ As I have noted already Earl it has been posted and repeated on here ad nauseum. If you missed it the first 50 times then perhaps you should go back and look. They are a matter of record.

On top of which even if I were to re-post them your continued changing of the issue in discussion, clear disingenuousness, non-sequiturs and redding me for perfectly reasonable comments I have made in this thread makes it clear the last thing you are interested in is contstructive debate on the topic.

I've no interest in your strawmen and obfuscating so, as promised, shall take the high-road and leave you to it. Enjoy.

**Mr Earl** · 01-02-2008, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

^ As I have noted already Earl it has been posted and repeated on here ad nauseum. If you missed it the first 50 times then perhaps you should go back and look. They are a matter of record.

On top of which even if I were to re-post them your continued changing of the issue in discussion, clear disingenuousness, non-sequiturs and redding me for perfectly reasonable comments I have made in this thread makes it clear the last thing you are interested in is contstructive debate on the topic.

I've no interest in your strawmen and obfuscating so, as promised, shall take the high-road and leave you to it. Enjoy.

Ok PeeWee you can have the last word: Your patent refusal to back up your own statement is duly noted.

**AntRobertson** · 01-02-2008, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Ok PeeWee you can have the last word

Thanks. Please let me know if you change your mind and are ever interested in actually debating the subject.

**Mr Earl** · 01-02-2008, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Thanks. Please let me know if you change your mind and are ever interested in actually debating the subject.

I'm interested in the data to support your statement. If it's common knowledge and there are 50 posts about it already it shouldn't be to strenuous now should it?

**Boon Mee** · 05-02-2008, 11:51 PM

^
Gone strangely silent has he?

**AntRobertson** · 06-02-2008, 09:39 AM

^ Nothing strange about it Booners.

It's pointless continuing a discussion on a topic when the other person is continually either misrepresenting/distorting or misunderstanding what it is that's being said. It's very circular and very tedious.

By all means disagree if you want to just don't change the topic and expect me to defend invented positions that were never mine to begin with.

**Marmite the Dog** · 06-02-2008, 12:51 PM

Boon Mee and Mr Earl continue their titanic struggle against the forces of common sense...

**blackgang** · 06-02-2008, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

Boon Mee and Mr Earl continue their titanic struggle against the forces of common sense...

I don't know whats going on but if you are using ANT for a reference point then you must be mistaken, altho no one has quoted him in awhile, I never saw him use any common sense..

**AntRobertson** · 06-02-2008, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

I don't know whats going on

Everything else that follows is superfluous.

**Boon Mee** · 06-02-2008, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

^ Nothing strange about it Booners.

It's pointless continuing a discussion on a topic when the other person is continually either misrepresenting/distorting or misunderstanding what it is that's being said. It's very circular and very tedious.

By all means disagree if you want to just don't change the topic and expect me to defend invented positions that were never mine to begin with.

Nobody's misrepresenting/distorting when they ask for you to provide backup for your position, eh?

Remember now antie - "Don't Bloviate in 2008", eh?

**AntRobertson** · 06-02-2008, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Nobody's misrepresenting/distorting when they ask for you to provide backup for your position, eh?

Booners,

My position has been made clear several times. That you and Earl have repeatedly failed to grasp this and go off on your little strawman Crusades doesn't change that fact. This isn't a remedial teaching class you know.

**Boon Mee** · 07-02-2008, 02:16 AM

^
Heh...that's what I thought - no proof - no erudite data - just more Obfuscate & Bloviate in 2008 from ant...

**Hootad Binky** · 09-02-2008, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by stroller

What does Boon Mee know about the present generation of doctors in the UK?

Still waiting for confirmation that Canadians flock to the US for healthcare, or the other way round, as Robertson claims...

I'm waiting on Robertson to support his claim Canadians don't flock to the states for superior & timley medical care.

Ho hum:

Originally Posted by Hootad Binky

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

To pay for full-coverage of every single person, the tax burden would overwhelming.

Canada seems to manage it quite well.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Not to mention the legions of illegals living in the states.

Speaking of "illegals":

Americans Filching Free Health Care in Canada

Published: December 20, 1993

Lacking a national health care system of their own, thousands of Americans are tapping into Canada's -- illegally.

"It's not an epidemic in any one person's practice," said Keith MacLeod, an obstetrician in Windsor, Ontario, across from Detroit, "but I would estimate that from 12 to 20 of my patients at any one time are ineligible Americans. And I'm just one of 520 doctors in Windsor, 23,000 in Ontario."

Dr. MacLeod, former president of the Essex County Medical Society, delivers about 400 babies a year.

A report prepared for Ontario's Health Minister indicated that from August 1992 to February 1993, 60,000 medical claims had been made on behalf of patients who held American drivers' licenses. The total number of improper claims in Ontario was estimated at 600,000.

Only legal residents qualify for free medical care in Canada, using plastic health cards for identification. Others are supposed to pay for medical services they may require, but many are submitting counterfeit, borrowed or fradulently obtained cards.

Loopholes and the lack of stringent controls are costing the provincial health care system as much as $691 million a year, the Ontario report found.

"The ministry is open to the fraudulent use of health care in all programs," the report said. "Almost no analytical tools exist at this time, and lenient registration policies encourage abuse by non- and new residents."

Joseph Cordiano, chairman of the Public Accounts Committee of the Ontario Legislature, added, "Fraud is squandering our resources."

Although the encroachment is largely a border phenomenon, it has national scope because more than 90 percent of Canadians live and work within 100 miles of the United States. Other provinces have similar problems, but Ontario's size has given the issue national prominence.

In Canada, policing health care was always seen as more trouble than it was worth, and the authorities have long ignored cracks in the system. Doctors have little desire to be secret informers, and strict patient confidentiality laws have helped seal their lips.

And for years Canadians widely believed that their country was rich enough to look after all those who entered its portals.

But times are changing. In an era of mammoth budget deficits, to which free health care is a leading contributor, politicians of all stripes are eagerly seizing on ways to save money.
"In the past, we didn't pay enough attention to who was an Ontario resident," said Health Minister Ruth Grier, a member of the socialist-oriented New Democratic Party, which governs the province. "But now we have to make sure that we spend taxpayers' dollars as wisely as possible."

The provinces run Canada's health care system, which takes roughly a third of their budgets and is financed by payroll taxes, federal transfer payments and periodic borrowing. About a quarter of the $17 billion spent on health care in Ontario, the richest and most populous province, is borrowed in the form of bonds sold to investors, many from the United States. The recent downgrading of Ontario's debt by two leading bond-rating services has suddenly raised the province's borrowing costs, thus compounding its financial problems.

^ Thanks for nothing!

All it takes to get free health treatment is a little plastic card. Doctors and hospitals note the number on the card and bill the province according to a fee schedule. In Ontario the card is red and white, bears no photograph and gives the name, date of birth and sex of the holder. Only the holder is entitled to the medical services. More Cards Than Residents

A recent report by the Provincial Auditor's office found 10.5 million Ontario residents registered to receive health care. The province has a population of 10 million.

Some evidence exists that cards are counterfeited. In drug and other raids, the police have confiscated cases of blank health cards. Also, families often fail to turn in cards of people who die.

As the card provides little information, borrowing is relatively easy for someone of the same sex and about the same age as the holder.

"They are people with an Ontario address for OHIP" -- Ontario Health Insurance Plan -- "but an American telephone number and place of employment," said Dr. MacLeod of Windsor. Some are Americans who were able to obtain health cards years ago by virtue of summer cottages they owned in Canada. Only full-time residents are legally entitled to use the cards. Some routinely borrow health cards of Canadian friends.

Among other measures being considered to deal with the fraud are more rigorous verification and control procedures and a new card that may carry more information and include the bearer's photo.

"Canada is an easy route for the Americans. If they can find a health card, they have a very good chance of using that card undetected for as long as the party lasts, and the party certainly won't be over tomorrow."

Americans Filching Free Health Care in Canada - New York Times

Thank God for Canada's socialised healthcare system! A far inferior system

but we're happy to help out our less-fortunate American friends

You've yet to refute this ^.

If America's system is so superior, why are Americans (not Canadians) flocking across the Canadian border? Hmm? Got an answer yet?

Didn't think so!

**Hootad Binky** · 09-02-2008, 03:52 AM

Universal health care could act as a subsidy to business, at no cost thereto. (Indeed, the Big Three of U.S. car manufacturers cite health-care provision as a reason for their ongoing financial travails. The cost of health insurance to U.S. car manufacturers adds between USD 900 and USD 1,400 to each car made in the U.S.A.)[75]

Universal health care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It costs American auto manufacturers an average of $6-7,000 per year, per worker to insure their work force; it costs them just $800/year in extra benefits for Canadian auto workers, working for the same union, since Canada's government system takes care of everything else.

So guess where the jobs are going?

**Texpat** · 14-02-2008, 06:48 AM

The other health care issue: Getting costs down - International Herald Tribune

Interesting read. Insurers pay, doctors bill, there's a lot of smoke and mirrors. Note the Thailand reference toward the end.

**Hootad Binky** · 15-02-2008, 05:13 AM

From the ^ article:

The bill, my friend was surprised to see, was for $8,513.36, not including the doctor's fee, which was a few hundred dollars more - this for a procedure involving no anesthesia and taking less than half an hour from start to finish.

...What was going on here? The truth is: I don't know.

Greed.

a system of billing and payments so complicated and inconsistent that it defies easy understanding.

Erm... greed.

the insurance company pays what it calls its reasonable customary rate. Some insurance companies, like mine, pay a lot, he said, and others, like Medicare, pay less, with the higher payers subsidizing the lower ones.

And some insurance companies refuse to pay anything at all. Reason?

**Mr Earl** · 15-02-2008, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Hootad Binky

You've yet to refute this ^.

If America's system is so superior, why are Americans (not Canadians) flocking across the Canadian border? Hmm? Got an answer yet?

Didn't think so!

Ummm let me guess... because it's free

Just because it's free doesn't make it "better".

**Mr Earl** · 15-02-2008, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

My position has been made clear several times. That you and Earl have repeatedly failed to grasp this and go off on your little strawman Crusades doesn't change that fact. This isn't a remedial teaching class you know.

We're still waiting for you to back up your assertion that government run health care is better quality.

**AntRobertson** · 15-02-2008, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

We're still waiting for you to back up your assertion that government run health care is better quality

I'm still waiting for you to be able to debate something in a reasonable, rational, and adult manner rather than being deliberately disingenuous.

Until such point it's a waste of my time dealing with the silly little games. Guess we're both going to be waiting a while huh.

**Hootad Binky** · 15-02-2008, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

Originally Posted by Hootad Binky

You've yet to refute this ^.

If America's system is so superior, why are Americans (not Canadians) flocking across the Canadian border? Hmm? Got an answer yet?

Didn't think so!

Ummm let me guess... because it's free

Just because it's free doesn't make it "better".

How is getting not getting the treatment you need better than free treatment in Canada?

If the free treatment wasn't better, why would Americans in their hundreds of thousands be willing to cross the border and commit fraud to receive it?

**Mr Earl** · 15-02-2008, 12:57 PM

I suppose having some treatment as opposed to none, is better.
Are you suggesting everyone should be treated like mooches?

But I think it's still debatable whether the actual medical service itself is any better.

Litigious abuse is mainly what has hurt the USA medical system, causing insane insurance costs for the practitioners.

**mellow** · 15-02-2008, 01:47 PM

Wish the US had free medical coverage, I wouldn't care if its better than whats available, or what the doctors color is, or where he comes from. Why should US people who can't afford health care be persecuted, as compared to the many other nationalities across the globe doing this worldwide.Is it only US people, are there no Asians, Eastern Europeans, Africans, South Americans doing this?

**Hootad Binky** · 18-02-2008, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

I suppose having some treatment as opposed to none, is better.
Are you suggesting everyone should be treated like mooches?

But I think it's still debatable whether the actual medical service itself is any better.

Litigious abuse is mainly what has hurt the USA medical system, causing insane insurance costs for the practitioners.

The less the insurance companies pay out, the more profit they receive; I think that might have something to do with it! The companies involved are not obligated by law to provide care in every circumstance, and they're definitely not too enthused about insured patients with chronic conditions because they're just big walking losses, business-wise.

No-one's disputing that the US has the best technology or training or that the US spends more per citizen than any other country on earth, the problem is delivery, and right now for millions of US citizens the fox, with an army of lobbyists on Capitol Hill, is gaurding the hen house.

People are not "mooches" for being human, for being vulnerable to injury or illness, and therefore having a stake in comprehensive healthcare.

It's also just good business sense:

Starbucks: health benefits exceed coffee bean costs

SEATTLE -- Starbucks Corp., based here, expects to spend more money on health insurance for its employees this year than it will spend on coffee and other raw products for its coffeehouses.

Howard Schultz, Starbucks' chairman, told a gathering of Washington state congressional representatives that the company provides health care to all employees who work more than 20 hours a week and that it has faced double-digit increases in health insurance each year for the past four years.

Schultz called the meeting with Sen. Patty Murray and Rep. Adam Smith, both Democrats, to draw attention to what he said is a growing crisis in health-insurance costs.

Starbucks: health benefits exceed coffee bean costs | Nation's Restaurant News | Find Articles at BNET.com

According to Starbucks Chair Howard Schultz, Starbucks has faced double-digit health insurance cost increases each of the last four years and expects to spend $200 million on health care for its U.S. employees — more than the total amount it spends on coffee. He said the increases are “nonsustainable,” even for companies that “want to do the right thing.” Starbucks provides health insurance to all employees who work more than 20 hours weekly. Schultz said the U.S. is “on a collision course” as health care costs rise. He added, “I would hope congressional leaders put this at the front of their agenda”.

A Healthy Blog » Starbucks Pays More for Health Insurance than for Coffee

So in other words, national healthcare is good for business but not the other way round. It's also cheaper.

I think a lot of Americans get this; why is this such a difficult concept for Republican leaders to grasp?

They ignore at their political peril.

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