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Old 18-01-2012, 05:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hydrogen power, the future alternative fuel.

Hydrogen has been used as rocket fuel since the early 1950's.

In these days of rising oil prices and resulting oil wars, hydrogen appears more attractive as a fuel source.

It is clean burning, and can be produced from a totally renewable source, water. When combusted, hydrogen and oxygen recombine to produce water again.

The fuel is recyclable and non polluting.

Britain opened up its first hydrogen pump.

Britain's first public hydrogen filling-station has opened in Swindon. It will be run by BOC (British Oxygen Company) who are the nation's biggest supplier of compressed gases. It is said that the station is an important step in a national scheme to make hydrogen vehicles a viable alternative to petrol-driven cars.

Swindon Borough Council's regeneration body, Forward Swindon, was awarded a 250,000 grant from the South West England Regional Development Agency in order to build the fuel station at Honda in Swindon.

Would you like to run your car on hydrogen?

It's not an expensive conversion, hydrogen hybrid cars are not talked of much, and most people think that the concept is an impossible dream, but car manufacturers don't.

Let's hear your views and accounts, if any of your hydrogen power.
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Old 18-01-2012, 05:37 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Sounds like something we should have been doing since the 50's and let those rag-head MF's starve in the desert and drink their oil.
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Old 18-01-2012, 05:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hydrogen and the Hindenberg

Wasn't that big German balloon ( the Hindenberg ) powered by that very volatile gas. So if we fill up on hydrogen, how do we prevent our hydrogen powered cars from unexpectedly going up in flames ?


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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT View Post
Hydrogen has been used as rocket fuel since the early 1950's.

In these days of rising oil prices and resulting oil wars, hydrogen appears more attractive as a fuel source.

It is clean burning, and can be produced from a totally renewable source, water. When combusted, hydrogen and oxygen recombine to produce water again.

The fuel is recyclable and non polluting.

Britain opened up its first hydrogen pump.

Britain's first public hydrogen filling-station has opened in Swindon. It will be run by BOC (British Oxygen Company) who are the nation's biggest supplier of compressed gases. It is said that the station is an important step in a national scheme to make hydrogen vehicles a viable alternative to petrol-driven cars.

Swindon Borough Council's regeneration body, Forward Swindon, was awarded a 250,000 grant from the South West England Regional Development Agency in order to build the fuel station at Honda in Swindon.

Would you like to run your car on hydrogen?

It's not an expensive conversion, hydrogen hybrid cars are not talked of much, and most people think that the concept is an impossible dream, but car manufacturers don't.

Let's hear your views and accounts, if any of your hydrogen power.
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Old 18-01-2012, 05:45 PM   #4 (permalink)
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At present, most hydrogen comes from natural gas, making it neither renewable nor green.
 
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Old 18-01-2012, 06:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The Hindenberg and the R101, both hydrogen filled, burnt from end to end, and did not explode.
Two parts of hydrogen by volume to one part of oxygen are needed to cause an explosion
Hydrogen is less dangerous than LPG or petrol when ignited.
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Old 18-01-2012, 06:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The method of making hydrogen from natural gas is expensive and also increases the carbon footprint in its manufacture.

Producing hydrogen by hydrolysis using electricity is the way forward, and such a method is used in home made HHO devices that are increasingly being used by do-it-yourself mechanics.

These devices work well when attached to internal combustion motors such as cars, trucks and motorcycles.
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Old 18-01-2012, 06:22 PM   #7 (permalink)
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It costs more Energy to separate hydrogen than you get out from it when consuming it.

End of.
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Old 18-01-2012, 06:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Not a fact.

Half a litre of water split by 5 amps at 12volts gives me 2,000 k of driving @ 30% petrol reduction in my car, right now.
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Old 18-01-2012, 06:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbil
It costs more Energy to separate hydrogen than you get out from it when consuming it. End of.
Of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
Not a fact. Half a litre of water split by 5 amps at 12volts gives me 2,000 k of driving @ 30% petrol reduction in my car, right now.
Bollocks.

There is no system where you get more energy out than you put in.
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Old 18-01-2012, 07:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Hydrogen may become a carrier substance ormeans of storage for energy in the future.

For that to be environmentally reasonable we need to find means to produce H2 from sunlight. Either chemically through direct conversion by algae or some kind of catalyst or using solar electricity for electrolysis of water. But the process of electrolysis is not very energy efficient so the produced H2 is expensive.

There are several schemes out there who claim otherwise but they are just scams.
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Old 18-01-2012, 07:29 PM   #11 (permalink)
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What I claim in my post #8 is exactly what I have achieved, hands on.
You can say bollocks as much as you like, as its obvious that your opinion is derived from hearsay, not practical experience with hydrogen production.

It's a simple process, and you can easily replicate the effects yourself.
The principle is demonstrated in high school science classes, and there are hundreds of articles on the web explaining the principle.

Many of the HHO devices shown deal with the exothermic problems encountered, and lots of DIY enthusiasts spend a lot of time dealing with the issue.

Here's a link to one method where only 1.24 volts are used, and the reaction is endothermic!

I've never achieved that, voltage being 12v in my car, and I get an exothermic reaction.
The heat produced is no great problem to me, as air flow is sufficient to cool the glass jar hydrolizer that I use.

Hydrogen production at 1.24 volts
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Old 18-01-2012, 07:33 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
most people think that the concept is an impossible dream, but car manufacturers don't.
Toyota US reckon we're about 40 years away from a useable hydrogen fuel cell. They have a test car that at present is crap and cost over $1,000,000 to make.
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Old 18-01-2012, 07:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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^^ I bet you believe in cold fusion as well
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Old 18-01-2012, 07:49 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Toyota and Honda have produced H2 fuel cell cars.
Most of these "green" cars are H2 electric hybrids

Uppsala has a hydrogen electric hybrid bus fleet, and in its early development it was hydrogen/diesel, more than 15 years ago.

Hydrogen powered vehicles are predicted to be in common use within 4-6 years, not 40 years awar.
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Old 18-01-2012, 07:51 PM   #15 (permalink)
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^^ I bet you believe in cold fusion as well
I'm not a believer.
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Old 18-01-2012, 07:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
Half a litre of water split by 5 amps at 12volts gives me 2,000 k of driving @ 30% petrol reduction in my car, right now.
The car in question:



ENT refueling:

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Old 18-01-2012, 07:59 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
Hydrogen powered vehicles are predicted to be in common use within 4-6 years, not 40 years awar.
If you say so...
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:12 PM   #18 (permalink)
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^^
I'm better looking than that and my car ain't as flash!
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:16 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
What I claim in my post #8 is exactly what I have achieved, hands on. You can say bollocks as much as you like, as its obvious that your opinion is derived from hearsay, not practical experience with hydrogen production.
It is not based on hearsay it is based on understanding of scientific facts.

Your experience is based on self delusion. I assume at this point not on something more sinister.

Energy cannot be produced or destroyed. So much is clear from understanding the laws of thermodynamics. It can only be converted. If what you claim were true you would produce energy.
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:18 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
Hydrogen powered vehicles are predicted to be in common use within 4-6 years, not 40 years awar.
If you say so...
Some hydrogen cars currently on the road.

Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars H2ICE Vehicles and Infrastructure

Germans have taken to hydrogen power faster than most European countries.

Thailand also has a slow growing interest in hydrogen hybrid cars, and conversions cost about Baht 32,000.

I think the units are manufactured in Thailand and were on sale in Chiangmai in 2009.
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:21 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT View Post
Not a fact.

Half a litre of water split by 5 amps at 12volts gives me 2,000 k of driving @ 30% petrol reduction in my car, right now.
How big of a solar panel do you need to get 5 Amps? I thought if you step up the voltage VDC you can seperate water faster. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The problem with hydrogen cars is not the engine. So far I agree with ENT.
Converting a conventional car to burning hydrogen has been achieved decades ago and has no problems.

Fuel cell electric cars are something else. They depend on reasonably priced long living fuel cells, which is a problem.

But the main problem is storage of hydrogen.
It can be stored as a gas but the tank is heavy and can store very little energy per volume and weight.
It can be stored as a liquid but that requires cooling to extremely low temperatures and as heat leaks in the H2 converts back to gaseous form. Then you have to burn it or lose it. If you park your car over night you lose your fuel.
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:28 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrabow
How big of a solar panel do you need to get 5 Amps? I thought if you step up the voltage VDC you can seperate water faster. Please correct me if I am wrong.
The deciding factor is not Volt or Amp it is the energy produced in Watt. Converting electricity to H2 you lose app. 50% of your energy, less in large industrial scale systems. Running your car with the starter engine from your battery is much more efficient.
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:28 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
What I claim in my post #8 is exactly what I have achieved, hands on. You can say bollocks as much as you like, as its obvious that your opinion is derived from hearsay, not practical experience with hydrogen production.
It is not based on hearsay it is based on understanding of scientific facts.

Your experience is based on self delusion. I assume at this point not on something more sinister.

Energy cannot be produced or destroyed. So much is clear from understanding the laws of thermodynamics. It can only be converted. If what you claim were true you would produce energy.
Your derogatory character snipes are uncalled for takeaways.

My experience is far more valid than any theory.

True, energy is neither created nor destroyed, simply converted, exactly what occurs in hydrolysis. The link I gave to a simple high school experiment concerning the theory of hydrolysis should be easily understood by you, since you seem to enjoy science.

The reality of cheap hydrogen production is experienced by a growing number of car owners.
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:33 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
Your derogatory character snipes are uncalled for takeaways.
Sorry for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ENT
The link I gave to a simple high school experiment concerning the theory of hydrolysis should be easily understood by you, since you seem to enjoy science.
I don't need such a link. I still recall my school days even if they are a long time away. We had that experiment in chemistry classes. I even did it at home. And I do have a basic scientific understanding of the process. And it all comes down to the fact that what you claim to achieve contravenes the laws of thermodynamics.
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