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stroller

Christianity had its own, violent and prolonged 'reformation', with the result of it being more tolerant towards non-believers and much less violent in its proselytising.

Is the much 'younger' Islam due to be reformed from within, by enlightened Muslims who've been exposed to the diversity of believes and life-styles in the modern world?

I just came across this activist organisation:
Muslims Against Sharia

chinthee

Well, that's certainly refreshing and welcome in today's world. I'm not sure how influential such organizations really are though, but we should certainly encourage more of this activity.

sabang

Imo, put more money in their pockets and reformation and tolerance will come from within.

Bigotry, ignorance, religious fundamentalism and radicalism mainly feed off closed societies and poverty.

TizMe

Isn't that what Osama Bin Laden does?

Texpat

Damn straight, Sabang. I've said it before -- you'll never see a guy who owns a Benz blow himself up in a crowded market. They always find the poor sod with nothing left to live for. Unfortunately, there seems a limitless supply of those types. When will that supply run out?

When Robin Hood levels the world playing field. When the poorest muslim in the deepest, darkest hovel rises in economic position level with the poorest oppresive westerner, is when the violence will stop. Religion means fuck-all. Then we can all live in peace.

Zavier38

^ so why were the 9/11 hijackers comfortably off saudis?

Its rising living standards that are breeding these cnuts as well with the blame game that blames the west/Israel for everything that goes wrong in their lives, and not the kleptocrats that run the Palestinian authority and other middle eastern dictatorships.

In Saudi, 80% of degrees are awarded in Islamic Studies - and a whole generation has grown up, supported by a welfare state, with too much time o their hands to sit and ponder the imponderable - and wholly unqualified for any engaging or meaningful work.

Too many people sat around with bugger all to do but with enough food in their stomachs has created the same dangerous situation that led to the 7-11 bombing s in London. These weren't poor downtrodden muslims - but middle class prrikcs with too much time on their hands and a mis-guided liberal education.

Hungry people get off their arses and find work. They don't blow themselves up.

Texpat

BECAUSE they were willing runts.

Damn you're dim too. Ever thought about piloting a jumbo full of pale faces into Big Ben?

Hootad Binky

If we encourage them they'll be labeled Crusader Sympathizers or something.

What the Arab world needs is not just a Reformation (they already have a Sunni/Shia schism) but also a Renaissance and an Age of Enlightenment.

I knew an American guy who was a Saudi Air Force trainer. He said the Saudi trainees weren't interested very much in the aeronautics or the engineering, they just wanted to fly the thing!

So the OP is a good development but one that will remained confined to the liberal/democratic Muslims that conceived of this idea in its Western-inspired context.

Even here in Canada moderate Muslims have been threatened by other Muslim Canadians for speaking out in favour of moderation.

__________________
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation. -Oscar Wilde

floorpotato

Since the Koran was intended to be taken literally, all Muslims are in a sense fundamentalists. The only 'moderate Muslims' are the ones who don't follow their religion closely. Maybe the people who want to reform Islam should just come up with another religion. That would be intellectually more honest than trying to pretend Islam is something less than barbaric, medieval superstition.

stroller

Yet a lot of it only makes sense in a historic context, and it speaks in images. Taking it literally has produced a myriad of interpretations, your argument is skewed.

floorpotato

There aren't a lot of ways to interpret passages such as this:

"5:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: "

or this:

4:34 If you fear high—handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teachings of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. "

The Koran contains so much literal misogyny, it appears to be written by Hugh Hefner on a very bad acid trip: Islam's Shame

AntRobertson

Ditto the Bible.

Deus Ex

People who believe in God are in the grip of advanced mental illness.

I don't know why people give anything they have to say the time of day.

If anything, there should be a voice telling them they have got it all wrong, not just parts of it.

keda

Surely it's just misunderstood by intolerant Islamophobes. I thought they treat their women quite well...well...quite.

Deus Ex

What do you tell a muslim woman with two black eyes?

Nothing - her husband's already told her twice.

KID

remember this post stroker?????



qoute=Storekeeper;168648]The infidels are who should be enraged:

...(W)hat would you expect the average American to think about Islam? Especially when thousands of Muslims will riot over cartoons featuring Muhammad, but few will protest terrorist attacks in the name of Allah? Can you blame Americans for being suspicious of Muslims when groups like CAIR complain about the use of the word "Islamo-Fascism," but don't seem to have much to say about actual Muslims advocating fascism in the name of Islam? What are Americans supposed to think when they see people getting their heads cut off in the name of Allah while moderate Muslims simply shrug their shoulders and declare that Islam is a religion of peace? Among Americans, there is a growing and hardening suspicion that moderate Muslims are really nothing but "moderate" Muslims who talk about peace while they tacitly support terrorism. There's a simple way for Muslims to change that perception. All they need to do is regularly condemn terrorism, condemn Sharia, condemn Hamas, condemn Hezbollah, and condemn Al-Qaeda. Maybe it's unfair that Muslims should be asked to do that and unfair that what extremists are doing should reflect badly upon Muslims who don't share their beliefs. However, fair or unfair, more moderate Muslims need to speak out, loudly, about their disagreements with the Islamo-Fascists or regrettably, the number of people in the United States and across the world that are hostile to Islam is only going to continue to increase.

Make sure to read it all here.[/quote]


maybe things are starting to change from within????

stroller

There is always a danger of quoting selectively, I am not denying there is an issue there, but this does not refute my argument.

floorpotato

I agree with you completely regarding the Old Testament, which can be as violent and barbaric as the Koran. I would have to take issue if you include the New Testament. There is nothing suggesting that Jesus advocated wife beating or mutilation of criminals. In fact, if he existed he seemed to be a rather peaceful guy. I've never felt that the Old and New Testament had much in common, but this is a entirely different issue (perhaps another metaphysics thread).

floorpotato

If I quoted unselectively, I would have a rather long post. How many ways are there to interpret beating one's wife or cutting off a criminal's hands or lashing an adulterer? Islam may have rich imagery as you point out, but it is very specific about behaviors necessary to be a good Muslim. To a person brought up in a Western liberal tradition, many of these specific laws and behaviors are offensive because they're extremely sexist and barbaric. During my upbringing, I was taught that Islam was one of the world's "great religions". Over the years, I've come to realize that there is nothing great about Islam, Judaism or most forms of Christianity.