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machangezi · 29-12-2007, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Don't take this the wrong way - isn't it possible he was mentally ill?

He could have imagined it.

Many people have 'visions' or whatever you want to call it.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Burr

I think they have already determined that the universe is going to keep expanding forever. There will be no Big Crunch.

It was recently discovered that the universe is expanding but

Quote:

Quran 051.047 With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

The Quran in chapter 51 verse 47 speaks about creating the Firmament (the vault of heaven or sky) and the "vastness of pace" which means the universe is vast and the word used for expanding is "Pace" which also means "Growth" or "Progress".

Who could have mentioned this in the Quran 1400 years ago??

Can a mad man have illusions that are so correct??

machangezi · 29-12-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Subject matter and topics of Chapter 51
The chapter mostly deals with the Hereafter, and in the end it presents the invitation to Tauhid. In addition, the people have also been warned that refusal to accept the message of the Prophets and persistence in the concepts and creeds of ignorance have proved to be disastrous for those nations themselves which have adopted this attitude and way of life in the past. About the Hereafter what this Surah presents in short but pithy sentences is this: The people's different and conflicting beliefs about the end of human life are themselves an express proof that none of these beliefs and creeds is based on knowledge; everyone by himself has formed an ideology on the basis of conjecture and made the same his creed. Someone thought that there would be no life-after-death; someone believed in the life- after-death, but in the form of the transmigration of souls someone believed in the life hereafter and the meting out of the rewards and punishments but invented different sorts of props and supports to escape retribution. About a question of such vital and fundamental importance a wrong view of which renders man's whole life-work wrong and waste and ruins his future for ever, it would be a disastrous folly to build an ideology only on the basis of speculation and conjecture, without knowledge. It would mean that man should remain involved in a grave misunderstanding, pass his whole life in the heedlessness of error, and after death should suddenly meet with a situation for which he had made no preparation at all. There is only one way of forming the right opinion about such a question, and it is this: Man should seriously ponder over the knowledge about the Hereafter that the Prophet of Allah is conveying to him from Him, and should study carefully the system of the earth and heavens and his own existence: and should see whether the evidence of that knowledge's being sound and correct is afforded by everything around him or not. In this regard, the arrangement of the wind and rain, the structure of the earth and the creatures found on it, man's own self, the creation of the heavens and of everything in the world in the form of pairs have been presented as evidence of the Hereafter, and instances have been cited from human history to show that the temper of the empire of the Universe requires that the law of retribution must operate here. After this, giving the invitation to Tauhid briefly, it has been said : "Your Creator has not created you for the service of others but for His own service. He is not like your false gods, which receive sustenance from you and godhead of which cannot function without your help, but He is a God Who is the Sustainer of all, Who does not stand in need of sustenance from anyone and Whose Godhead is functioning by His own power and might. In this very connection, it has also been stated that whenever the Prophets of Allah have been opposed and resisted, they have not been opposed and resisted on the basis of any rational ground but on the basis of the same obduracy and stubbornness and false pride that is being shown against the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and there is no other motive for it than rebellion and arrogance. Then the Holy Prophet has been instructed not to bother about the rebels but to go on performing his mission of invitation and admonition, for it is useful and beneficial for the believers although it may not be so for the other people. As for the wicked people who still persist in their rebellion, they should know that their predecessors who followed the same way of life, have already received their shares of the punishment, and these people's share of the punishment has been made ready for them.

The Quran in this chapter covers various topics for those interested I have given a brief description above but the point I want to emphasize upon is that God asks man in this chapter to carefully study the system of the earth and heavens and his own existence: and should see whether the evidence of that knowledge's being sound and correct is afforded by everything around him or not.

Deus Ex · 31-12-2007, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machangezi

The Quran in chapter 51 verse 47 speaks about creating the Firmament (the vault of heaven or sky) and the "vastness of pace" which means the universe is vast and the word used for expanding is "Pace" which also means "Growth" or "Progress"

That is an interpretation.

The Bible also talks about heaven & such.

I would think talking of 'pace' is about how fast things are moving as in progress with his religion.

If he would have mentioned the other galaxies & stuff we know now is out there, I would be more convinced, but what he said could mean anything.

What strikes me, is that all those years ago, it seems God was coming down to Earth every other week & doing God-like stuff, but nowadays he is nowhere to be seen. If there was only one God & all that, why do so many people believe different things? He would have made things pretty clear from the off.

My question - why do Muslims believe Jesus could talk from the moment he was born when Mary took him to see the village elders (as it says in the Quran) & Christians believe in the three wise men thing? Especially as Muslims weren't even invented until six-hundred years after the event?

chinthee · 31-12-2007, 12:44 AM

Yes, I have studied the "system of the earth" and concluded that there is nothing divine in any of this. No, not from Jesus and God, not from Allah, not from any of these weak human explanations of the origins of man.

Sorry.

keda · 31-12-2007, 08:35 AM

Hey Macha, are these indications of a real intelligent bloke or a charlatan manipulating peasant masses...?

When Habib the Wise challenged Mohammed to validate his mission
by cleaving the moon in two, the Prophet raised his hands toward
heaven and commended the moon to attend his bidding.
Accordingly, it descended to the top of the kaaba, made seven
circuits, and coming to the prophet, rose into his right sleeve
and emerged from the left. It then entered the collar of his
robe, descended to the skirt and clove itself into two plaits,
one of which appeared in the east of the skies and the other in
the west. The two parts ultimately reunited.

It is known that Muhamat accepted the kneeling of Al Adha,
fabled to perform the trip from Jerusalem to Mecca in four
bounds, as a sign from God, which is why he consented to allow a camel
to enter the portals of heaven, alongside Borak, a donkey, and two dogs.

According to Mohamed, perhaps eager to convey his credentials
to highly educated followers, the Seventh Heaven is formed
of divine light beyond the power of the tongue to describe. Ruled
by Abraham, father of those who in later years will be targeted for
destruction, the inhabitants are bigger than the whole earth
and each have 70,000 heads, each with 70,000 faces, and each face
is made of 70,000 mouths; each mouth holds 70,000 tongues, each
of which speaks 70,000 languages, all for ever employed
in chanting the praises of Allah.

On the other hand, you can start what portends to be a serious thread, only to spoil it all with a demented argument on the strength of...

Quote:

Quran, chapter 21, verse 30,

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?

Happy new year, if your prophet consents, and hope you had a great Xmas whether you wanted to or not.

AntRobertson · 02-01-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keda

Hey Macha, are these indications of a real intelligent bloke or a charlatan manipulating peasant masses...?

...

Happy new year, if your prophet consents, and hope you had a great Xmas whether you wanted to or not.

Yes Xmas, a traditional holiday celebrating the birth of a baby to a married woman who was a virgin, apparently, who then grew up and turned out to be the son of god, was executed and got up for a stroll a few days later, and in between did a load of stuff like feeding thousands of people with some bread and fish, walking on water, and asking his followers to eat his body and drink his blood...

And you're taking Macha to task on the Quran?

Thormaturge · 02-01-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

You can observe the planets all moving away from each-other in a manner consistent with them all starting in the same place.

In the tiny part of the Universe that we can observe this appears to be the case. Our understanding of the Universe is still really very limited however and may well change entirely over the next century. Maybe groups of stars expand and contract over time and what we are witnessing is a one-million year contraction in our part of the Universe with another group of stars contracting elsewhere.

I'll ask Stephen Hawking the next time I see him.

Dalton · 02-01-2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machangezi

Now who could have told this to Mohammed P.B.U.H ( a shepard) around 1400 years ago??

I think you have got the wrong impression of this fella Mohammed...He might have been a shepard, but he also had child-rapist and mass murder on his CV.

Ping · 13-01-2008, 07:08 PM

^^ Good point, because if we accept that the universe is infinite, then we can only ever understand a part of it that is infinitely small in terms of ratio.

For example, the 'big bang' theory is based upon matter spreading out and away in all directions from a central point. It is pointless to try to apply an overall explanation of the creation of the universe to such an observation, because the event itself is meaningless in context of an infinite universe.

As to whether there are cyclicle 'big bangs' is another issue. We know that entire galaxies tend to collide into each other every now and then and, of course, this brings enormous energy with it. Perhaps when sufficient energy is compressed within a 'black hole', it ultimately generates a cataclysmic explosion.

However:

1. If we assume that the universe is infinite, we must also assume that it can never occur that all matter can collapse and ultimately result in a 'big bang'.

2. If we assume that the universe has always existed (in an eternity), then the universe cannot have been created by a 'big' bang' since it was already in existence.

This is where it becomes convenient to consider Einstein's theory and its application to Hawking's rejection of the basic Big Bang singularity theory (which requires a 'closed' universe). Once we can come to grips with the concepts of eternity and infinity, perhaps we can then understand the concept of a creator. Until then, there will be many who continue to view our humble religious conventions as being akin to believing in a flat earth.

Norton · 13-01-2008, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ping

If we assume that the universe is infinite

Then all things are true. If the universe is infinite, then there are infinite numbers of Earths that have infinite numbers of identical people. We as a species are incapable of contemplating such a possibility so we must be content to create a universe through science and religion, we can understand.

Norton · 13-01-2008, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machangezi

Who could have mentioned this in the 1400 years ago??

We have a tendency to underestimate the amount of knowledge the ancients had lost to us over time. I believe the Quran and other writings contain a great deal of what was either known or theorized by the learned of the time.

stroller · 13-01-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalton

Quote:

Originally Posted by machangezi

Now who could have told this to Mohammed P.B.U.H ( a shepard) around 1400 years ago??

I think you have got the wrong impression of this fella Mohammed...He might have been a shepard, but he also had child-rapist and mass murder on his CV.

Does this reply have anything to do with the question posed, or are you just pissing on this thread and feel you're being clever or someit?

Ping · 14-01-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ping

If we assume that the universe is infinite

Then all things are true. If the universe is infinite, then there are infinite numbers of Earths that have infinite numbers of identical people. We as a species are incapable of contemplating such a possibility so we must be content to create a universe through science and religion, we can understand.

Unless, like Pi (being an 'irrational' number), it is infinitely unique (more or less)...

Norton · 14-01-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ping

Unless, like Pi (being an 'irrational' number), it is infinitely unique (more or less)...

Ad infinitum.

tristram · 14-01-2008, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

I'd like to, but i can't believe in something that i don't understand.

Do you have a microwave?

Milkman · 14-01-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Yes Xmas, a traditional holiday celebrating the birth of a baby to a married woman who was a virgin....

Christmas is a pagan holiday rooted in Zoroastrianism, Yule celebrations in Scandinavia, and other pagan rituals.

Real Christians don't celebrate Christmas.

If they do, they celebrate it, as a pagan holiday.

beenaroundawhile01 · 14-01-2008, 10:18 PM

Many Pagen holidays were changed to Christen festivals after the roman crusades, when Christianity spreed from Rome. If you have a look at many of the church's they have from that time and now, they have many pagan symbols on them, the reason for this is the romans could only get so called pagen converts to build many of thier churches thoughout Euorope, and hence, still being pagans at heart, placed these symbols that were adopted along with the festivals by the Christians.

Dalton · 18-01-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stroller

Does this reply have anything to do with the question posed, or are you just pissing on this thread and feel you're being clever or someit?

Compared to the reli-nutters, then I'm freaking Einstein...

31-12-2007, 12:44 AM	#24 (permalink)
chinthee Sundance is my bff Last Online: 23-09-2008 07:21 AM Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,033	Yes, I have studied the "system of the earth" and concluded that there is nothing divine in any of this. No, not from Jesus and God, not from Allah, not from any of these weak human explanations of the origins of man. Sorry.

13-01-2008, 07:08 PM	#29 (permalink)
Ping Mukdahan Last Online: 30-11-2008 01:05 PM Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 407	^^ Good point, because if we accept that the universe is infinite, then we can only ever understand a part of it that is infinitely small in terms of ratio. For example, the 'big bang' theory is based upon matter spreading out and away in all directions from a central point. It is pointless to try to apply an overall explanation of the creation of the universe to such an observation, because the event itself is meaningless in context of an infinite universe. As to whether there are cyclicle 'big bangs' is another issue. We know that entire galaxies tend to collide into each other every now and then and, of course, this brings enormous energy with it. Perhaps when sufficient energy is compressed within a 'black hole', it ultimately generates a cataclysmic explosion. However: 1. If we assume that the universe is infinite, we must also assume that it can never occur that all matter can collapse and ultimately result in a 'big bang'. 2. If we assume that the universe has always existed (in an eternity), then the universe cannot have been created by a 'big' bang' since it was already in existence. This is where it becomes convenient to consider Einstein's theory and its application to Hawking's rejection of the basic Big Bang singularity theory (which requires a 'closed' universe). Once we can come to grips with the concepts of eternity and infinity, perhaps we can then understand the concept of a creator. Until then, there will be many who continue to view our humble religious conventions as being akin to believing in a flat earth.

14-01-2008, 10:18 PM	#37 (permalink)
beenaroundawhile01 Kamphaeng Phet Last Online: Today 11:42 AM Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 336	Many Pagen holidays were changed to Christen festivals after the roman crusades, when Christianity spreed from Rome. If you have a look at many of the church's they have from that time and now, they have many pagan symbols on them, the reason for this is the romans could only get so called pagen converts to build many of thier churches thoughout Euorope, and hence, still being pagans at heart, placed these symbols that were adopted along with the festivals by the Christians.

19-01-2008, 06:39 PM	#39 (permalink)
machangezi Not again! Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Out there! Posts: 8,119