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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    There is nothing "dangerous" about diving in the first place.
    Nothing dangerous? What about decompression sickness and nitrogen narcosis?

    Considering both of these can be fatal, I'd say that diving can be very dangerous.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    There is nothing "dangerous" about diving in the first place.
    You're a naive fool. Just because an expat owns or runs a dive shop does not automatically make it safe, some long term expats are worse than many Thais when it comes to safety.

    And who is doing all the work on the shop, checking gauges and lines, refilling bottles etc? Some uneducated monkeys (thai or expat backpackers) being paid peanuts.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Treetop View Post
    Hi - I'm considered taking up SCUBA diving as a hobby. Have a very old PADI qualification but would need a refresher. Looking to do open water/reef/wreck diving but as long as there are interesting fish I don't care where I dive!

    Now I'm living on a somewhat limited income and do not wish to acquire yet another expensive hobby (hello golf) so could anyone give me a rough idea of how much it would cost to get up to speed then perhaps dive once a month plus vacations from there on in?

    I live in Pattaya on the darkside FYI.

    Thanks for your help.
    Better off diving in The Philippines, Thai culture makes diving in Thailand is too dangerous.
    That is an odd statement. I have to say that I don't agree.

    There is nothing "dangerous" about diving in the first place. Like any sport, there are some risks specific to the sport - take swimming, hiking, mountain biking, or even boating for example - however the number of accidents in diving is extremely, extremely low compared to almost any other outdoor sport.

    On Koh Tao the dive shop operations are all managed by Farangs. Clearly any potential safety issues are not going to be related to Thai culture.

    And in Thailand, it is a law that divers have a guide. This means that every group goes underwater with a qualified professional dive-guide.

    There is no reason to not go diving in Thailand which is related to safety.
    The so called guides you refer to are all farang, yes???

    As with anything in Thailand, better be able to rescue yourself in event of a problem, not advisable in scuba diving. Think of me when you you are looking for air at 20 meters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    ^ Thats OK - Personally. I think you are talking out of your arse....
    are you always so polite? It would seem that you are either calling me a liar or telling me that I do not know what I am talking about. Since you have no information about me in order to make that judgment, maybe you have your own information about the dive-guide requirement.

    If you have actual information, then you can share it for the benefit of the other readers.

    I learned about the law from 3 course directors whose job it is to be informed about diving laws and regulations in Thailand. It is not their job to spread rumors and lies. Course directors are also many times the responsible manager for the diving operations, ie: legally responsible... Another reason they need to know the law. While it is possible that all 3 of them were mis-informed, that is extremely unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TizMe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    There is nothing "dangerous" about diving in the first place.
    Nothing dangerous? What about decompression sickness and nitrogen narcosis?

    Considering both of these can be fatal, I'd say that diving can be very dangerous.
    Let me be clear - I am referring to recreational diving.

    As I said, there are risks associated with any outdoor sport. But the 2 examples that you mention above are extremely, extremely rare events. In order for either to occur, much less to be fatal, the diver must be diving in a way which goes against everything he/she was taught.

    When accidents happen, be it mountain biking or crossing the street, it can be fatal. Relative to nearly any outdoor sport, diving is extremely safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Wilson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    There is nothing "dangerous" about diving in the first place.
    You're a naive fool. Just because an expat owns or runs a dive shop does not automatically make it safe, some long term expats are worse than many Thais when it comes to safety.

    And who is doing all the work on the shop, checking gauges and lines, refilling bottles etc? Some uneducated monkeys (thai or expat backpackers) being paid peanuts.
    Dear perfect gentleman, with all due respect, I am not a naive fool.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Treetop View Post
    Hi - I'm considered taking up SCUBA diving as a hobby. Have a very old PADI qualification but would need a refresher. Looking to do open water/reef/wreck diving but as long as there are interesting fish I don't care where I dive!

    Now I'm living on a somewhat limited income and do not wish to acquire yet another expensive hobby (hello golf) so could anyone give me a rough idea of how much it would cost to get up to speed then perhaps dive once a month plus vacations from there on in?

    I live in Pattaya on the darkside FYI.

    Thanks for your help.
    Better off diving in The Philippines, Thai culture makes diving in Thailand is too dangerous.
    That is an odd statement. I have to say that I don't agree.

    There is nothing "dangerous" about diving in the first place. Like any sport, there are some risks specific to the sport - take swimming, hiking, mountain biking, or even boating for example - however the number of accidents in diving is extremely, extremely low compared to almost any other outdoor sport.

    On Koh Tao the dive shop operations are all managed by Farangs. Clearly any potential safety issues are not going to be related to Thai culture.

    And in Thailand, it is a law that divers have a guide. This means that every group goes underwater with a qualified professional dive-guide.

    There is no reason to not go diving in Thailand which is related to safety.
    The so called guides you refer to are all farang, yes???

    As with anything in Thailand, better be able to rescue yourself in event of a problem, not advisable in scuba diving. Think of me when you you are looking for air at 20 meters.
    Lorenzo, are you a diver?

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    ^ Thats OK - Personally. I think you are talking out of your arse....
    are you always so polite? It would seem that you are either calling me a liar or telling me that I do not know what I am talking about. Since you have no information about me in order to make that judgment, maybe you have your own information about the dive-guide requirement.

    If you have actual information, then you can share it for the benefit of the other readers.

    I learned about the law from 3 course directors whose job it is to be informed about diving laws and regulations in Thailand. It is not their job to spread rumors and lies. Course directors are also many times the responsible manager for the diving operations, ie: legally responsible... Another reason they need to know the law. While it is possible that all 3 of them were mis-informed, that is extremely unlikely.
    This has already been hashed out on the scubaboard (a thread in which you took part) a couple of years ago. Several well known course directors on that thread (and if you are a diver in Thailand, you would know who they are) made it clear that there WAS no such law to the best of their knowledge. Others with decades of Thai dive experience agreed that this was nonesense.

    Thai Law concerning Dive Guides [Archive] - ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network

    I would also be interested to know why the people who told you this have gone from:

    Quote Originally Posted by TL on scubaboard

    February 8th, 2010, 12:58 PM
    I have never read the law, but a course director told my IDC class about it, and I chose to believe him.
    to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    I learned about the law from 3 course directors whose job it is to be informed about diving laws and regulations in Thailand
    .

    Incredible multiplying course instructors!

  9. #34
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    Is that a case of boosting the appeal to authority?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Wilson View Post
    Is that a case of boosting the appeal to authority?

    Well, three course directors obviously carries more weight than a mere one.....

    Anyway, the thread quashes it pretty much completely, obviously TL has some more personal adgenda going on here by raising it again...

  11. #36
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    And a logical fallacy is still a logical fallacy.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post

    Incredible multiplying course instructors!

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Wilson View Post
    And a logical fallacy is still a logical fallacy.
    Indeed. I would think that TL got hold of the wrong end of the stick during his IDC. The only law in thailand that would vaguely cover this is the one that states that "guides" must be Thais. This is mainly directed at tour guides and the like. So, in theory, and "dive guide" should be a Thai citizen.

    However, there is no law anywhere that states (as TL alledges) that "divers must have a guide".

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    ^ Thats OK - Personally. I think you are talking out of your arse....
    are you always so polite? It would seem that you are either calling me a liar or telling me that I do not know what I am talking about. Since you have no information about me in order to make that judgment, maybe you have your own information about the dive-guide requirement.

    If you have actual information, then you can share it for the benefit of the other readers.

    I learned about the law from 3 course directors whose job it is to be informed about diving laws and regulations in Thailand. It is not their job to spread rumors and lies. Course directors are also many times the responsible manager for the diving operations, ie: legally responsible... Another reason they need to know the law. While it is possible that all 3 of them were mis-informed, that is extremely unlikely.
    This has already been hashed out on the scubaboard (a thread in which you took part) a couple of years ago. Several well known course directors on that thread (and if you are a diver in Thailand, you would know who they are) made it clear that there WAS no such law to the best of their knowledge. Others with decades of Thai dive experience agreed that this was nonesense.

    Thai Law concerning Dive Guides [Archive] - ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network

    I would also be interested to know why the people who told you this have gone from:

    Quote Originally Posted by TL on scubaboard

    February 8th, 2010, 12:58 PM
    I have never read the law, but a course director told my IDC class about it, and I chose to believe him.
    to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    I learned about the law from 3 course directors whose job it is to be informed about diving laws and regulations in Thailand
    .

    Incredible multiplying course instructors!
    Well you found one of the few online references to the question.

    So you would know that I am not talking nonsense and you have information to indicate that I might just know what I am talking about . I cannot same the same for you except that I now know that you have an interest in diving that might go beyond reading this thread. Tell us more.

    As for 3 course directors, yes, that is how many have confirmed to my that this was the law in 2010 - I doubt that it has changed. One CD was very clear, as well, that it is not particularly enforced. But that doesn't mean that it is not the law. It also explains why I haven't seen any dive shop on KT which doesn't send out groups with a guide. The only exceptions I have seen to this are DMTs (for the uninitiated, thoser are people in Dive Master training) going as a group or buddy pair as part of their training. But every shop I have been diving with sends your run of the mill tourist in the water with a guide. Even on Koh Tao, with it's relatively easy diving, I think that is a good idea. It is a safety issue.

    The original comment I replied to was a comment that divers should dive in the Philippines because diving was too dangerous in Thailand due to Thai culture or something similar. That is quatch/nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Wilson View Post
    Is that a case of boosting the appeal to authority?

    Well, three course directors obviously carries more weight than a mere one.....

    Anyway, the thread quashes it pretty much completely, obviously TL has some more personal adgenda going on here by raising it again...
    no personal agenda, just sharing the information that I have.

    Feel free to do the same.

    So far, the only proof to this not being the law which I have ever seen are people making an incredibly well informed "I have never heard about it" claim.

    That is hardly and informed argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Wilson View Post
    And a logical fallacy is still a logical fallacy.
    what would that be, sir wilson?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Wilson View Post
    Is that a case of boosting the appeal to authority?

    Well, three course directors obviously carries more weight than a mere one.....

    Anyway, the thread quashes it pretty much completely, obviously TL has some more personal adgenda going on here by raising it again...
    no personal agenda, just sharing the information that I have.

    Feel free to do the same.

    So far, the only proof to this not being the law which I have ever seen are people making an incredibly well informed "I have never heard about it" claim.

    That is hardly and informed argument.
    That's not how incredibly well informed argument or debate works matey, you make a statement then it is incumbent on you to back it up, not on others to disprove it.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    But that doesn't mean that it is not the law. It also explains why I haven't seen any dive shop on KT which doesn't send out groups with a guide. The only exceptions I have seen to this are DMTs (for the uninitiated, thoser are people in Dive Master training) going as a group or buddy pair as part of their training. But every shop I have been diving with sends your run of the mill tourist in the water with a guide. Even on Koh Tao, with it's relatively easy diving, I think that is a good idea. It is a safety issue.
    .
    I have dived all over Thailand in buddy pairs -no guide.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    But that doesn't mean that it is not the law. It also explains why I haven't seen any dive shop on KT which doesn't send out groups with a guide. The only exceptions I have seen to this are DMTs (for the uninitiated, thoser are people in Dive Master training) going as a group or buddy pair as part of their training. But every shop I have been diving with sends your run of the mill tourist in the water with a guide. Even on Koh Tao, with it's relatively easy diving, I think that is a good idea. It is a safety issue.
    .
    I have dived all over Thailand in buddy pairs -no guide.
    Same. And I have never even seen a "guide". I have only seen instructors going down with groups of students. If you and your dive buddy were both certified divers, off you went.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    But that doesn't mean that it is not the law. It also explains why I haven't seen any dive shop on KT which doesn't send out groups with a guide. The only exceptions I have seen to this are DMTs (for the uninitiated, thoser are people in Dive Master training) going as a group or buddy pair as part of their training. But every shop I have been diving with sends your run of the mill tourist in the water with a guide. Even on Koh Tao, with it's relatively easy diving, I think that is a good idea. It is a safety issue.
    .
    I have dived all over Thailand in buddy pairs -no guide.
    Same. And I have never even seen a "guide". I have only seen instructors going down with groups of students. If you and your dive buddy were both certified divers, off you went.

    Pretty much the whole philosophy of PADI.

    I will be honest, on occassion I have used guides, particularly if I am diving somewhere new and need the "sights" pointed out - usually specific sea life i.e. finding that one fan with pigmy seahorses can be fruitless - unless you know exactly where it is....

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TLansford View Post
    But that doesn't mean that it is not the law. It also explains why I haven't seen any dive shop on KT which doesn't send out groups with a guide. The only exceptions I have seen to this are DMTs (for the uninitiated, thoser are people in Dive Master training) going as a group or buddy pair as part of their training. But every shop I have been diving with sends your run of the mill tourist in the water with a guide. Even on Koh Tao, with it's relatively easy diving, I think that is a good idea. It is a safety issue.
    .
    I have dived all over Thailand in buddy pairs -no guide.
    Same. And I have never even seen a "guide". I have only seen instructors going down with groups of students. If you and your dive buddy were both certified divers, off you went.

    Pretty much the whole philosophy of PADI.

    I will be honest, on occassion I have used guides, particularly if I am diving somewhere new and need the "sights" pointed out - usually specific sea life i.e. finding that one fan with pigmy seahorses can be fruitless - unless you know exactly where it is....
    Ditto. I'm PADI certified as a Master Diver, but when I got to the Philippines, it had been some time since I had been diving. When I was diving in new places, especially some of the more remote sites here, some of which have wicked currents, I would get a local diver to go down and do an orientation dive or two with us, until I was comfortable with the location.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton View Post

    Ditto. I'm PADI certified as a Master Diver, but when I got to the Philippines, it had been some time since I had been diving. When I was diving in new places, especially some of the more remote sites here, some of which have wicked currents, I would get a local diver to go down and do an orientation dive or two with us, until I was comfortable with the location.
    Do I remember you are batangas way? Dived PG several times - bloody awesome, and knocks the spots of most places in Thailand. Dived Dumagutte pier in its day -a world class muck dive site.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton View Post

    Ditto. I'm PADI certified as a Master Diver, but when I got to the Philippines, it had been some time since I had been diving. When I was diving in new places, especially some of the more remote sites here, some of which have wicked currents, I would get a local diver to go down and do an orientation dive or two with us, until I was comfortable with the location.
    Do I remember you are batangas way? Dived PG several times - bloody awesome, and knocks the spots of most places in Thailand. Dived Dumagutte pier in its day -a world class muck dive site.
    Yep. Can leave my house at 10AM and be in PG by noon. Tore a shoulder up though, so haven't been in a while as I'm still doing rehab post-surgery.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton View Post

    Yep. Can leave my house at 10AM and be in PG by noon. Tore a shoulder up though, so haven't been in a while as I'm still doing rehab post-surgery.
    Sorry about the shoulder, hope you get it sorted soon, and I am as jealous as hell of you being that near to PG....very fond memories of that place (although, one does have to note that it is a real shit hole out of the water!!!!!!!)

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davis Knowlton View Post

    Yep. Can leave my house at 10AM and be in PG by noon. Tore a shoulder up though, so haven't been in a while as I'm still doing rehab post-surgery.
    Sorry about the shoulder, hope you get it sorted soon, and I am as jealous as hell of you being that near to PG....very fond memories of that place (although, one does have to note that it is a real shit hole out of the water!!!!!!!)
    Pretty much sorted; rehab 5 days a week. All part of being 60 and acting 30 - your body occasionally reminds you. It's got a decent bar or two but yeah, basically a dump.

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