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raycarey

finish, how?

seriously. how does this all end?

Butterfly

You really can't expect them to do much in that cahos. The minute the US leaves, they will be hang on the streets.

Butterfly

Ask the Russians in ChenChenya. Never.

raycarey

stroller

Haven't you heard it yet, the Iraqis are grateful to the US and allies for helping to liberate them from the violence and atrocities committed on a daily basis there before democracy and freedom were installed.

But it will take them a little longer to realise that the root of the problem is evil Islam which has turned the ragsheads into barbarians.

man with no head

33% is hardly overwhelming support. And, yes, that group largely is largely evangelical Christian conservatives who would support the war no matter how badly it goes (which goes back to my point about this being a religious war more than a war on 'terorrists.')

Bush was re-elected because at that time more people were willing to give the benefit of the doubt (and mostly because Kerry was such a poor candidate). Now they are not and the recent election reflects this. The Democrats have not had a coherent platform/candidate since Clinton. So, Bush winning the election in 2004 really was more about the Democrats losing in failing to provide a suitable choice.

Are we morally obligated to continue funding and putting our troops in harm's way? No. It's time for the government of Iraq to step up to the plate and start assuming responsiblity if they wish to continue to govern (which hasn't happened a single day since the election...which is why the election was a hosejob to begin with).

There are no easy solutions. Pouring more American money and soldiers on the fire isn't going to put it out. I would argue that the chances of the situation improving are at this point likely better with us out of there than with us in there. As long as we stay and fund the mess the Iraqi government has no reason to assume any responsibility. And as long as we keep troops there we give good cause to the insurgents to keep fighting (not to mention being a great recruitment tool for more terrorists elsewhere).

stroller

Who knows how it will end - Iraq may split into different nation states - finish means to put your money where your mouth is and stay there until the situation will be stabilised to a comparable degree as it was before the US dismantled the place.

Withdraw now, and do you believe there is any chance of it getting 'better' than under Saddam?
Ironically, the US may become instrumental in bringing about the very thing they wanted to prevent - an Islamic Iraq under the administrative and ideological influence of its neighbours.

That will probably happen anyway. The quagrime is that the US are basically neither welcome nor in any way compatible in culture, religion or political aims to any Iraqi.

Staying on may prevent the worst from happening, leaving will most certainly result in civil war and even more bloodshed.

Edit:
It is a large portion, well, about 1/3. Governments get elected with little more support than that, Lady Thatcher springs to mind (2nd term).
The Nazis came to power with 1/3 of the votes and an appointment to do their bidding. Has Germany as a nation been held responsible for the government of that time- of course!

raycarey

i admire your optimism, but IMO that is never going to happen. the days of stability in the geographic region once known as iraq are long gone.

of course not. this is a case of pay me now or pay me later....and later is bound to be more 'expensive' for everyone involved. (and i hope everyone realizes i'm not making reference to $)

when the US pulls out in a state of shame and embarrassment, perhaps it will stop them from doing it again...well, in the near future anyway.

US citizens forgot how badly they lost in vietnam, and they need a hard slap in the face to remind them not to believe politicians and their short sighted imperial hubris next time around.

additionally, that is why these criminals (cheney, rummy, wolfowitz, hadley, bolton, rice) belong in the hague. future 'leaders' need to have an example of what will happen if they forget that there are real world consequences to their actions.

Butterfly

Well, there is an easy solution to a stable Iraq: bring back Saddam

But that would be as embarrassing as leaving in a cut and run manner

Either way, the US is fucked. And so are the Iraqis. Well they were fucked since day 1 anyway.

Butterfly

well actually they could break a deal with Syria and Iran. Letting them get away with their nuke program for Iran, and for Syria, their insurgency in South Lebanon against Israel, in exchange they would stabilize Iraq.

GW Bush did good. He actually reshaped the Middle East into a better one against Israel.

Sir Burr

The violence at the moment is overwhelmingly Iraqi against Iraqi, though the US can't stop it, they are limiting it, especially in Bahgdad.
If the US can't stop the violence, how on earth can the Iraqi government?
The Iraqi police are not trusted as they seem to be part of the problem, taking sides. The Iraqi army is better and far less partisan, yet, the army is still too small to take on the responsibility. The US must stay and try and convince Syria and Iran to help.

I'm surprised that the US military didn't take the lessons of Somalia onboard.

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Milkman

Also, Al-Maliki and Al-Sadr may by queitly condoning the Shiite militias and death squad to rid them of the 'Sunni problem.'

A few months before the Americans invaded Iraq, Saddam Hussein ordered several Arabic editions of the book "Blackhawk Down" and distributed it to his Army officers and others in government.

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Boon Mee

Democrats have decided to start pulling troops out of Iraq starting in March/April and that flushing sound you hear is the fledging Iraqi democracy going down the toilet next summer...

Butterfly

I think this is the solution

stroller

^
Age shouldn't be a hinderance for a bit of patriotic peacekeeping, winning minds & hearts by giving sweets to the kids, helping old ladies across the street and contribute experience to the rebuilding and education over there to enable the contageous spirit of freedom and democracy to spread even faster...

raycarey

^^

and just in case the cyber-warriors who are happy to have other people's kids die in iraq missed it....

U.S. Marine Corps | Official Recruiting Site for the U.S. Marine Corps

LesBonsTemps

As unremitting a liberal Democrat as I am, I have to agree with Sir Burr --in invading, occupying under Rumsfeld's bad decisions, and thus creating the current situation, we have a moral imperative to the Iraqis that we not leave without some form of stabilization.

Now, that being said, if the panel can help create a solution that would do so and allow drastically reduced forces within 12 months, that would be a more than wonderful thing.

(BTW, withdrawal in less than 6 months would be impossible due simply to logistics requirements.)

The U.S. retains a military presence still in...Japan, Germany, Italy, Korea, Bosnia, Saudi Arabia. I seriously doubt that the U.S. will pull all troops.

Boon Mee

raycarey

hey boonie.....this thread is about the iraq study group.

i know it's hard for you to keep up, but please try harder.

in theory, i agree with both you and sir burr....but at some point the US needs to determine whether or not its presence is the main obstacle to stabilization.

the US viewed as an occuping force by the average iraqi ....and as targets by those that have taken up arms.

by the way, has anyone else noticed that the 'goal' for iraq is on a very slippery sliding scale...

whatever happened to it being the beacon of democracy?

White House rebuffs call for troop withdrawal in Iraq - CNN.com