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Panda

That's exactly the way it appears to be panning out. The Yanks are not the only ones who can switch sides and change strategy in their own national interests.

I believe the original Neocon plan Iraq was to oust Saddam and set up a pseudo democratic puppet government, de-nationalize the oil industry, break from OPEC, and occupy the country indefinitely to ensure control. It doesn't seem to working out as planned though.

bkkandrew

^^Very interesting. What a shambolic stratagist. No wonder he couldn't even chew a Pretzel properly!

Texpat

Ahhh the expert TD foreign policy analysts telling us how it all panned out.

How refreshing to have such a clear view on the inner workings of the relationship between a fledgling government and a world superpower (I know you simply abhor that term).

Thanks for the insightful wisdom and clever analysis. You guys are the greatest.

Panda

Any heads up apart from winning the war against terror there Tex? Wrong country I guess. Bush missed that one too.

Yea, it was all about regime change so the ex-US friend and allie wouldn't attack the world with WMDs and go on killing his own people hey? Now, after 5 years it looks like the US got the regime change that they really didn't want. With the farce of WMDs exposed and a million dead, now the Iraqi government wants the US out. Hardly what I would call a victory.

Texpat

Ah what the heck, make it two million while you're at it.

You coming with me to the ticker-tape parade down Fifth Avenue? I don't suppose they'll have one in London or Sydney.

AntRobertson

What a complete and utter waste of a post. Why don't you drop the sarcasm and contribute your point of view then Tex?

Texpat

or Wellington.

bkkandrew

Because it would be incorrect in any case?

Panda

Hey Tex, While I can understand that you might be lost for words right at the moment, I kind of get the impression that you might be an allright kind of bloke under that brazen US patriot persona.

Somewhere down the track I hope that we can meet up for a quiet beer (without talking politics).

Texpat

Iraq has had a sovereign, democratically elected government in place for more than two years now. If they wanted the US out tomorrow, there is little the US would do but try to negotiate with them, but ultimately, leave. The Iraq government is exploring their newfound powers -- and what better training partner than their liberators.

You remember -- the Americans you guys claim installed them in the first place. Do you really think they're playing hardball with Bush and Co? Do you really think they're willing to tell the US to get stuffed?

I don't, and I don't think any of you do either.

sabang

Not really, I think they're playing two faced diplomacy- but with the Iranians increasingly pulling the strings. I think the Iraqi gov't still relies on the US miltary presence for it's short term survival, but I also think they are weaning themselves away from this- with the Iranians now the prime broker between the Shiite factions.

Meanwhile, the US is in a tricky position, because it is (understandably) aligning itself with some Sunni factions, even arming them, in the fight against the radical Sunni Al Qaeda, and allied elements. This can't be seen positively by the Shiites.

A damn can of worms- but you opened it.

Not yet, Tex. Not yet.

__________________
To err is human. To blame someone else is politics.

Texpat

By Dean Yates
Reuters

BAGHDAD - U.S. and Iraqi negotiators have ended efforts to reach a formal security pact before President George W. Bush leaves office in favor of an interim deal, the Washington Post said on Sunday, citing senior U.S. officials.

The two sides had been negotiating a Status of Forces Agreement that would provide a legal basis for U.S. troops to remain when a U.N. mandate expires at the end of the year.

But in the past week Iraqi leaders have spoken of only agreeing what they call a memorandum of understanding. Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki has also raised for the first time the prospect of setting a timetable for U.S. troops to leave Iraq.
The Washington Post quoted one U.S. official close to the negotiations as saying "we are talking about dates", even though Bush has previously rebuffed calls for a timetable.

Iraq is a major issue in November's presidential election battle between Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama. McCain supports the Bush administration's current strategy, while Obama has called for a timetable for withdrawal.

The Post said the "bridge" security document would be limited in both time and scope and would allow basic U.S. military operations to continue once the U.N. mandate ended.

Iraq has rejected a number of Washington's demands, insisting they infringe on the country's sovereignty.

The document now under discussion with Iraq was likely to cover only 2009, the Post said.

Negotiators expected it to include a "time horizon", with specific goals for a U.S. troop withdrawal from Baghdad and other cities and installations, it added.
The fixed dates are likely to include caveats referring to the ability of Iraqi forces to take over security. Some Iraqi officials themselves have said any timetable would be determined by security conditions on the ground.

PRESSURE

There is strong domestic pressure in Iraq to set dates for a withdrawal of U.S. forces, especially with violence at a four-year low and with Iraqi security forces getting larger and taking the lead in more security operations.

Maliki's political opponents would also likely try to exploit the issue of an undefined U.S. troop presence in provincial elections later this year.

The most contentious unresolved issue was the legal immunity of U.S. troops in Iraq, the Post reported.

U.S. officials have said this is non-negotiable. But Iraq's deputy parliament speaker has said lawmakers would probably veto any deal that gave U.S. soldiers immunity from Iraqi law.

The Bush administration has always opposed setting any withdrawal timetable, saying to do so would allow militant groups to lie low and wait until U.S. troops in Iraq have left.

U.S. troop levels are already being cut, with the last of five additional combat brigades Bush deployed last year expected to pull out this month. That will leave 15 combat brigades in Iraq, or around 140,000 soldiers.

Washington was considering withdrawing additional troops beginning in September, The New York Times reported on Sunday, citing administration and military officials.
The withdrawal stemmed partly from the need for more U.S. troops in Afghanistan to fight the rising insurgency by the Taliban and other fighters.

No final decisions had been made, but up to three combat brigades in Iraq could be withdrawn, or slated for withdrawal, by the end of the administration in January, the Times said.

The White House declined to discuss the withdrawals, but spokesman Gordon Johndroe told the newspaper that while Bush hoped to bring more troops home, he would await recommendations in September from General David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Iraq, the Times said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTKM00295920080713?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNew s&rpc=22&sp=true

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It makes sense to have a MOU in favor of a full SOFA anyway. I'm not aware of any nations that have a SOFA with the US that don't have permanent bases. Japan and Korea and UK and Germany do. Thailand does not. The Philippines does not. Iraq does not. I doubt if Australia does. The US has already announced there will be no permanent basing in Iraq.

SOFAs are more precise than MOUs, but they cover the same scenarios. A SOFA is usually a very long-term proposition with a country that shares a defense treaty. I'm not aware of any treaties the US shares with Iraq.

Leaving this alone until after the US election is probably a good idea anyway.

machangezi

Whatever the figure is the U.S of A had and has no right to be there simple as fuck now if you wanna Yank it up then go ahead but that would only explain that you are an ignorant moron which we already know.

__________________
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." Samuel P. Huntington


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Texpat

Look what the cat dragged in.

machangezi

whatever you say!

Panda

Arrrr.. all warm and fuzzy. So Nice of the US to drop in and set things straight in Iraq.
I guess that's just what the US does in far away places. Freedom , democracy and the American way.There you go guys. Now we are off home after we have helped you along the way. If only fairy tales were true.

The thing is that the UN mandate for the US to continue the occupation of Iraq ends this year, so there are 2 options on the table for USA. 1. find some excuse to ignore the UN mandate and continue occupying the country illegally. 2, pull up stumps and get the fuck out of Iraq as the democratic government of Iraq wants them to do.

Alternatively, the US could start a war with Iran and justify the occupation of Iraq as in the American interest. That seems to be on the cards, but wouldn't be real smart IMHO. So, they will probably do it anyway.

machangezi

Come on man........ how dare you say something like that about the U.S of A. They are the upholders of democracy in the world.

Reasons for attacking Iraq was on the suspicion of Iraq having WMDs and being able to attack but where are the WMDs?? Now they twist the story by saying that it was America's moral responsibility to liberate the Iraqi people from Saddam's rule...... now Saddam's gone so why don't they just fuck off??

If "Liberation from Oppression" is the American slogan why not attack North Korea? Kim Jong Il is well known for getting his jollies by killing people. why not do that??? IMO it is a far more noble thing to do.

Texpat

By Andrew Johnson
The Independent
13 July 2008

British soldiers forced a boy of 14 to carry out an act of oral sex on a fellow male prisoner in Iraq, according to shocking new allegations made about the behaviour of British troops.

The Ministry of Defence confirmed yesterday that the Royal Military Police (RMP) have launched an investigation. If the allegations are proved, it would mark a sordid low in the behaviour of British troops in Iraq, and damage further the reputation of Britain in the Middle East.

The victim, now 19, whom The Independent on Sunday has agreed to identify only as Hassan, says he was rounded up with a friend while trying to steal milk cartons from a food distribution centre. He was whipped, beaten and forced to strip naked.

"They made us sit on each other's laps," he said. "They were enjoying humiliating and abusing us, I wished I was dead at this moment. Then they made me sit with Tariq... where I was forced to put Tariq's penis in my mouth. The other two were made to do the same."

Court action is ongoing over a series of allegations surrounding the British base Camp Breadbasket and incidents that took place there in May 2003. There have been allegations of simulated sexual abuse of Iraqis by British troops, but this, if true, would be the first example of actual sexual abuse.

Soldiers rounding up looters as part of an operation codenamed Ali Baba took photographs of prisoners suspended in nets from forklift trucks and others forced to strip naked and adopt simulated sex positions.

The photographs caused outrage around the world when they were published, after a British soldier took them to be developed at a high-street shop. An RMP investigation led to just four soldiers being jailed for up to two years in 2005. A number of the alleged victims, including Hassan, are suing the MoD for damages.

The MoD last Thursday reiterated its official line that abuse was isolated to just a few rogue soldiers, after agreeing to pay nearly £3m compensation to the father of Baha Mousa, 26, a hotel receptionist beaten to death by British soldiers while in custody in a separate incident in September 2003, and nine other Iraqis beaten at the same time.

Mazin Younis, of the Iraqi League, who has travelled in Basra collecting witness statements of allegations of abuse, says he now has "more than 80" cases involving allegations against British troops.

"Every single time I uncover a personal story of torture and humiliation in Iraq, I think to myself that I have seen the worst there is," Mr Younis added. "Then I hear the next story.

"Hassan shook with emotion and humiliation as he described to me the treatment he suffered at the hands of British soldiers five years ago. It had taken constant prompting and repeated reminders about the importance of detail before Hassan felt brave enough to describe how he was forced to engage in oral sex with his friend Tariq while their British captors laughed raucously and took photographs."

Such is the culture in Iraq that Hassan fears for his life if identified. It has taken him four years to find the courage to talk about the incident, Mr Younis said. He fled Basra after the incident, giving up his education and staying indoors for fear that someone may recognise him.

Mr Younis added: "There is, of course, no case as bad as a killing or murder. But the fact that this is sexual ... It can lead to suicide because it is so humiliating. Hassan fled Basra because he couldn't face his friends, the people who had seen this.

"He left education and is now unemployed. He has been very, very traumatised. It is the kind of thing that is very difficult to admit to or talk about. No one expected the British to be worse than Saddam Hussein."

Mr Younis said the more than 80 allegations of abuse will form the basis of a series of actions at the European Court of Human Rights, as many of them took place outside British bases and are therefore outside British jurisdiction.

Phil Shiner, of Public Interest Lawyers, has represented many of the Iraqis who allege abuse at the hands of British troops, including Baha Mousa's family and Hassan. "It should be a national scandal that representatives of the British state could have engaged in such appalling behaviour," he said. "I call on the British government to immediately set up an inquiry into this incident."

The Labour MP Harry Cohen also joined calls for an investigation. "We need to have a full inquiry into how we keep prisoners. It obviously needs a complete overhaul," he said.

An MoD spokesman said yesterday: "We can confirm that a new allegation has been received in relation to the alleged abuse of a 14-year-old boy by British soldiers at Camp Breadbasket in May 2003.

"The allegation has been referred to the Royal Military Police, and efforts are in the process of being made to contact the alleged victim as soon as possible.

"All but a handful of the more than 120,000 British troops who have served in Iraq have conducted themselves to the highest standards of behaviour, displaying integrity and selfless commitment. All allegations of abuse are investigated thoroughly and – where proven – those responsible are punished and the abused are compensated.

"The Army has done a great deal since the cases of abuse related to the death of Baha Mousa in 2003. Procedures and training have been improved. But we are not complacent and continue to demand the very highest standards of conduct from all our troops."

A case to answer

Baha Mousa
Beaten to death in September 2003. Nine others also mistreated. MoD agreed to £2.83m compensation payout last week and will hold a full inquiry into the abuse.

Camp Breadbasket
Prisoners beaten, forced to strip and simulate sex in May 2003. Subject of damages claim by 11 of the victims.

Abu Naji
Twenty Iraqi civilians allegedly executed at British base in Abu Naji in May 2004. Five survivors bringing a claim for damages.

Jabbir Hmoud Kammash
70-year-old tribal leader is bringing action over claims he was hooded and beaten during a raid at his home in Basra in April last year.

Ahmer Jabbar Kareem and Ayad Salim Hanoon
Teenagers forced to swim a canal, resulting in the drowning of Kareem, 15. Kareem's father and Hanoon are pursuing a claim for damages.

Hassan's statement: 'They enjoyed abusing us'
At 7am my friends convinced me to head towards Camp Breadbasket in order to steal dried milk cartons in order to sell them on the black market. The hangars were surrounded by a high fence, though there was an opening in the fence. Next to the fence there was a road, then a river.

When we tried to leave the hangars via the opening in the fence British soldiers chased us. We tried to run away but were caught. Some Iraqis managed to escape arrest. I believe some may have drowned as they were trying to escape the British.

British soldiers caught me and started beating me and others using their vehicle's aerials. They were beating us very harshly. We were led inside the hangars while still being beaten all the way. The beating became stronger when we were inside the camp. I was kept in a hangar along with four other Iraqis.

They ordered us to take off our clothes by gesturing to us to do so. When we refused they continued beating us, so we had to follow their orders. They made us sit on each other's laps. I was with one of the detainees, while another two detainees were made to do the same thing, as in the photos. They were enjoying humiliating and abusing us. I wished I was dead at this moment. Then they made me sit with Tariq as in the other photo, where I was forced to put Tariq's penis in my mouth. The other two were made to do the same.

They locked the hangar while we were inside and left us there with no food or drink till the afternoon of the day after, when they opened the hangar and let us go. Since then I fled Basra altogether as I cannot see Tariq again after what had happened, despite the fact that we were close friends.

British soldiers accused of sickening sex assault on Iraqi boy, 14 - Home News, UK - The Independent

***

Oh goodness me. Surely a mistake here ... Those are your boys ain't they Macha? No the one's in uniform.

machangezi

Okay seriously now......what do you mean by this?? As far as I can understand it has got nothing to do with the post you are replying to.

What has the U.S of A leaving Iraq got to do with British perverts??

And why do you refer to them as my people?? What do you mean by saying "my People"??

P.S: Don't think hard because you know what is gonna happen to you if you think a lot.

bkkandrew

When losing an argument, change the subject, especially to one which has a sexual angle. That'll work.