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mad_dog

Israel will cease to exist in it's present form because a Jewish state cannot be a liberal democracy as inherent bias exists against non-Jews. Israel was founded by the U.N and constituted on the racist beliefs of a Jewish Austrian journalist who died long before the rise of Hitler and the Holocaust which are now the main justification for the essential nature of the Zionist Entity.

Like Frankenstien's monster Israel is a hideous man made entity propelled by hard power from the global hegemon. Attempting to create a nation state on an existing populations land will create a bastard country. Just look at Israel the fences and the walls and the guns and the petty brutality which increasingly resembles a concentration camp for those on both sides of the wall.

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They champion falsehood, support the butcher against the victim, the oppressor against the innocent child. May God mete them the punishment they deserve

MrG

Actually not. Even the Bible talks about the Israelites, after their 40 years in the desert (actually building an army, if memory serves) invading the land of Canaan.

This from http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm
In other words, they've taken the land from somebody else twice now.

Rural Surin

The Bible shouldn't be a definitive source to interpretate history. As it might be considered a fairy tale. Much history, as we know it, is induced from fiction.

MrG

True. The Bible is lousy history. But defenders of Israel are always bring it up as historical justification and I think the taking of Canaan actually has some archeological data behind it.

Butterfly

with that logic, most of Europe and Asia should go back to the Mongol

what a silly argument, Brit, as usual

Blake7

What are you talking about?
Mongols were invaders - Asia and Europe was hardly "theirs" since the dawn of time.

England reclaiming France would be be a more accurate example....

Rural Surin

The Moors would be a better {and accurate} example.

Rural Surin

.....some already have.

britmaveric

An argument no less

Butterfly

^ good point, but you were invaders too, weren't you ?

Butterfly

actually a better example would be to return America to the native Indians,

how about that, Brit, how is that compatible with your simplistic logic about Israel ?

Panda

^ You mean,-- all those stories I learnt in Sunday School weren't true?!

sabang

The other thing, if you really want to go back that far or place some historical store on the Bible, is that the land of the ancient Isralites (Judea) was in fact a lot smaller than Israel is now. Somehow, when people use this 'getting our land back' justification, they conveniently overlook the fact that they didn't just take their land back, but also Samaria and parts of other neighbouring tribal lands that were never Judean.

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Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

larvidchr

Anyway I would think the Mossad is just about as tuned in to future events as the CIA, which don't really say to much because the CIA record of predictions is not exactly stunning, so there is a quite good chance that the Israelis will have a say in the OP matter.

It is pretty interesting to see the "westerners" here on the board cheering for the only real democracy in the region to disappear, Israel have made a reasonable peace with Egypt the only other country in that region with something resembling a western democracy, it could therefore be argued that if the other country's in the region was turned into democracy's, instead of being run by dictators and religious old fanatics, the whole region would have a chance of peace, good progress was made with the Palestinian authority before the Hamas hard-liners ruined it all.

It is probably forgotten how many times Israel bent over backwards to accommodate Arafats demands, and agreements where made, only to see Arafat run from said agreements because of pressure from the hard-liners within Fatah, and pressure from other fanatic nations outside that saw an interest in keeping the conflict alive and kicking. And not much on that account have changed today, it would be nice to see some of you protesting against the blatant non compromise meddling from said nations who when it comes to it, could not care less about the plight of the Palestinians, but act from a variety of selfish political and religious agendas, using the Palestinians as convenient pawns.

I'll bet you that Israel will be there in 20 years, but some of the religious dictatorships and dictatorships around might much more likely have changed significantly, just try to recap the last 20- 30 years even 50-60 years and count to yourself how many democracy's have fallen in that time? and how many dictatorships?

It is natural that changing demography in populations bring changes, but in 20 years Israel will still be a Jewish state in essence and a democracy, and the west and the US will never abandon Israel completely, US support for Israel have been going up and down with shifting Governments, and Israel will survive the Obama administration just like they survived Carter and Clinton.

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I still pillage........................................... .................my fridge at night.

sabang

It's only a quasi democracy now, because of the second class status of Arab Israeli citizens.

But really, if they want it to be an Israeli state in twenty years time (or even a state) why aren't they pursuing the two state solution?

mad_dog

This is the most salient question. Hawks like PM NutterYahoo would rather die than give up land that the IDF has spilt blood over. The West Bank and Gaza are considered part of the historic Jew homeland. A good proportion of the current coalition government, and not just the religious fundamentalist and settler parties, beleive in their devine right to a Greater Israel.

The long term Israeli position is to conflate the relatively simple issue of returning the occupied territories with an intractable problem which simply must be completely resolved before peace talks can begin.... At the moment the Iranian nuclear "crisis" fits the bill.....

Israel as the crushing victor has little interest in peace.

Panda

[quote=mad_dog;1207186]USA sends $BILLIONS to Israel every year and has done so for decades.
It is no secret that USA is funding Israels war machine to the tune of $billions every year. A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: Almost $114 Billion
And no secret that USA uses its power of veto in the UN to trash every single motion attempting to halt Israels rein of terror and occupation of neighbouring territory. U.S. Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel

It is therefore not simply ironic, but grossly hypocritical of USA to pose as a peacemaker in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict while Israel is a virtual military proxy of USA.

If it were not for USAs extravagant funding and protection of Israel, the Zionists would be back in their own country behind internationally agreed 1967 borders instead of illegally occupying foreign territory.
It is not Israel alone who is responsible for this gross injustice and flagrant breach of international law. US foreign policy support for Israel is the prime reason for the ongoing conflict while Israel illegally encroaches further into Palestinian territory.

The US government should be held accountable for their fundamental role in continuing this conflict.

mad_dog

[quote=Panda;1207581] The U.S bribed the despot dictator Anwar Sadat by offering Egypt 2/3s of whatever aid Israel recieves per annum. Sadat accepted the cash and recognised Israel and began a kleptocratic, brutal, dictatorship in a country which had been the center of Islamic culture and learning for a thousand years.

This move was reviled by his countrymen and a group of army officers led by the Islambouli brothers gunned Sadat down (Thanks to God's will one of the brothers, Shakwi(s.p) still lives as a free man in the land of Jihad; Afghanistan) Sadly Hosni Mubarak was able to carry on the cozy little dictatorship deal while the lives of ordinary Egyptians became less and less cozy.... Of course little facts such as these were overlooked when the "neo cons" sought to bring "freedom" and democracy to the Middle East by attacking former client dictators who were no longer towing the Company line....

MrG

Were you also opposed to cheering the fall of aparthied South Africa. Israel is not really so much different in that respect. They have been serial breakers of international law for years for refusing to get off of occupied land. Lawbreakers again for throwing people out of their homes and claiming their land as part of Israel. The question is why anybody would defend them for it.

A gross distortion repeated in the news media. Arafat was offered the West Bank without control of it's own borders, air space, roads, with outposts (settlements) scattered throughout. Not unlike what America did with the Native American populations.

sabang

^ Well, at least the Obama admin is now trying to play a tangible role in sorting it out, and getting Palestine formed. It won't happen overnight, but the international community is right behind him on this one.