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larvidchr

You mean like this:
when asked about coalition troop levels, only 18 percent of Afghans wanted troop levels increased. Twenty-nine percent wanted the same number of troops, and 44 percent wanted troops decreased.

Translated that means that a comfortable majority are happy with the presence of the coalition forces,
47 % are the won over hearts and minds + 9% that don't care one way or the other gives 56% that are in favour or just okay with the situation, much better than you would expect considering the maiming and killing and indiscriminate atrocities going on all over Afghanistan if you are to be believed, so just maybe you are lending your ear to the wrong Afghans all the time eh Dan.

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I still pillage........................................... .................my fridge at night.

Dan

The fact that an opinion isn't given means that....there's no opinion. So you have 18 + 29% = 47% who are either pro or tolerant/indifferent - it's ridiculous to try to infer from these bare figures that they're "won over hearts and minds" - and 44% who are anti. Fairly evenly balanced but then you have a 52% disapproval rating among Afghans for the American occupation and, from MfG's earlier link:

"This situation is even more dire when you consider Anthony Cordesman's (an escalation supporter, mind you) statement that "all insurgency is local." In the Kandahar region, 84 percent of Afghans surveyed held an unfavorable opinion of the U.S. and 55 percent of those surveyed said attacks against U.S./NATO forces were justified. In Nangarhar, 90 percent held an unfavorable view, and 63 percent justified attacks against U.S./NATO troops. This is the Pashtun "sea" for the Taliban-led insurgency; the dismal 5-10 percent turnout for the August election in the Pashtun areas and the numbers above show that U.S. counterinsurgency strategy has totally failed. Keep in mind, this poll was taken in January 2009. The intervening eight months have been a public-relations disaster for the United States."

If you look at the polls at http://abcnews.go.com/images/Polling...nistan2009.pdf, you'll find the following:

Afghans views of the US: Favourable: 2005 83% Now 47% Unfavourable: 2005 14% Now 52%

Performance ratings: Karzai: 2005 83% Now 52% Afghan Government: 2005 80% Now 49% US: 2005 68% Now 32%

Support for US/ISAF/NATO forces: 2006 67% Now 37%

Views of US/ISAF/NATO forces: Strong local presence: 2006 57% Now 34% Effective at providing security: 2006 67% Now 42%

On every one, support amongst the Afghan people is collapsing.

__________________
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.

Dan

They've got a corrupt puppet government in the capital and an armed insurgency in the countryside. That sounds like a pretty typical occupation.

Panda

Lost it badly with that parting paragraph there Larv.

The whole world knows this Afghan war is not about humanitarian ideals.
Wars of this magnitude dont just happen because some good people on the other side of the planet decide people in a far off place need a better quality of life that freedom and democracy can bring.

Afghanistan, Al Qaeda, Iran, Iraq and emergence of a radical Islamic threat to the west has been fermenting for decades out of the wests desire to militarily and politically control oil resources in the Middle East. If it wasn't for the oil there no western government would really give a dam how they lived their lives. Our western interests in the Middle East are purely economic rather than humanitarian.

Unfortunately, this oppression by the west has led to a resurgence of radical Islamism as a means of galvanizing the people there against western imperialism.

We have created our own nemesis out of our own greed and desire to dominate other cultures and economies.

Our own western culture of conquering distant lands to plunder their wealth does not sit well in the modern world of the 21st century. The increasing radicalization of the Muslim world and the increasing technical capacity for them to strike back against us is at odds with out military strength. This militarily backed economic colonialism just ain't working too well anymore. We have succeeded in creating a hard core of Islamic Jihadists intent on opposing our economic ambitions and destroying us. How does one put such a belligerent genie back into the bottle now? Yes, we have created our own nemesis and thats something we and our children are going to be forced to live with now for a very long time to come. And kicking sand in the face of that genie while we seemingly have the upper hand is not going to make future reconciliation any easier.

Milkman

Here is an article by Ron Paul. Kind of general. But an msnbc article came out today.

Perhaps the tide is changing on Afgghanistan, more now.

Campaign For Liberty — Saving Face in Afghanistan [at][at]| by Ron Paul

Jet Gorgon

Clear left and right here! OK, do it the leftie way, pull out all the troops and then what? Send aid and let them help themselves? That won't stop the terrorists -- they'll grow more opium, buy bigger weapons and continue to get funding from like-minded govts. Besides terrorizing the people again.
Yes, the Kharzai govt is corrupt, but the election rigging was immediately pointed out by the AMERICAN UN envoy Galbraith who was sacked by his Euro UN boss.
So, the US pulls out and then what? Should it close its borders? Refuse re-entry to anyone who travels to A-stan, Iran, Pakistan, N Korea...
POYUS is trying to please the ROW and has forgotten his key job: keeping America safe.

Humbert

Rahm Emmanuel told CNN last night that no additional troops would be forthcoming until the US has an effective working Afgan partner. There seem to be two options; 1) a new election or 2) some kind of power sharing arrangement between Karzai and Abdullah Abdullah. This is very interesting because Hillary Clinton said that if a new election was held, Karzai would undoubtedly win. It is evident that little love is lost between the Obama administration and Karzai. This is leading to a big showdown.

Milkman

I think this sentiment - coming from people there, on the ground - say something.

I think this may be a trend.

LInk & Entire: washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines

raycarey

a trend based on one incident?

anyway, i hope it becomes a trend.

if there was ever a chance for victory in afghanistan, it was in 2003-2004. now all the US military is doing is simply postponing it's retreat.

sabang

"Like the Soviets, we continue to secure and bolster a failing state, while encouraging an ideology and system of government unknown and unwanted by its people,"

"I'm not some peacenik, pot-smoking hippie who wants everyone to be in love,"

"I have doubts and reservations about our current strategy and planned future strategy, but my resignation is based not upon how we are pursuing this war, but why and to what end,"

Al Jazeera English - Americas - US official resigns over Afghan war


Ouch. Double Ouch.


President Obama, please answer the question- Why are 'We' in Afghanistan, and to what end??

__________________
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

raycarey

two points:



i could be wrong, but i think the US has been in afghanistan longer than the soviets were...before they retreated.



that's the question, isn't it?

karzai says it's to protect the afghan people.
really?
i'm not so sure the american public would agree.

and btw, did anyone see that NYT story about karzai's brother being on the CIA payroll for the last 7 years....and that he's reputed to be one of the key drug king pins in the country.

obama's got three choices...and two of them are good ones...but difficult.

the good:
he can follow mccrystal (sp) and put in 40K troops and try to defeat the taliban
he can pull out

the bad:
he can chart some sort of middle path which includes fewer troops....this may be politically expedient, but likely doomed to failure.


get out now.

Panda

ABC iView | Internet TV Service Click on 4, then select Monday October 19th to veiw the programe.

An ABC FourCorners doco showing the massive scale of entrenched corruption within the Afghan government and misuse of international aid funds.

Highly recommended viewing.

Humbert

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcasts/fareedzakaria/site/2009/11/01/gps.podcast.11.01.cnn

Fareed Zakaria interviews Matthew Hoh, the diplomat who resigned this week in protest over US Afganistan policy. This is a must see interview.

MrG

The interview on the economy is great too. Green on ya.

D Mac

How long does it take until we build a Mc Donalds there?

raycarey

great stuff.

IMO another must see video is here:

Meet the Press- msnbc.com

and under 'recent videos'

scroll down to "take two" "krakauer recounts the odyssey of pat tilman'.


krakauer is the guy who wrote 'into thin air' and 'into the wild', and he just published a book about pat tillman--the former NFL player who turned down millions of dollars to join the military to fight in afghanistan. he was killed by friendly fire, but that fact was covered up.

someone who played a key role in the cover up was general stanley mcchrystal, head of us forces in afghanistan.

if this story has legs...and i'm not sure if it does.....mcchrystal will be lucky if he isn't court martialed.

sabang

It is not provable, but he was quite likely murdered.

sabang

Will a Whopper do?

Bagram air base "already boasts fast food favorites Burger King, a combination Pizza Hut/Bojangles, and Popeyes as well as a day spa and shops selling jewelry, cell phones and, of course, Afghan rugs."

Tomgram: Nick Turse, In Afghanistan, the Pentagon Digs in

Noam Chomsky has recently emerged from hibernation, he's on a speaking tour in Europe. And he agrees with Ron Paul on this-

"States are not moral agents," he says, and believes that now that Obama is escalating the war, it has become even clearer that the occupation is about the credibility of Nato and US global power.

Noam Chomsky: 'US foreign policy is straight out of the mafia' | World news | The Guardian

Milkman

^ Brilliant quote selection, Sab.

And as you and we all know:

Link & Entire:

Obama's Afghan Plan: About 40K More Troops - CBS News

MrG

^
Very disapointing--and discouraging--if the report turns out to be true.