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Boon Mee

Heh...mighta expected you'd be the sort to take to the MSNBC extreme liberal garbage. Olbermann your hero, eh?

The 10 year cease-fire is on condition that Israel gives up all land gained during the last few wars with them A-rabs...which we know they will not do.

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Hootad Binky

You mean like GWB's pathetic and failed "Annapolis" initiative? Possibly the most insincere and feeble attempt "road-map" to "peace" ever attempted?

GWB is good at ordering bombing when told to. He will be remembered for this. Carter, on his own, has accomplished more in two weeks than GWB/Rice could do in an entire term.

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sabang

Do you? Then why does the majority of the Israeli population say otherwise?

And why do you wish for a continuation of this conflict? Whats in it for you??

Butterfly

well the Bush administration is too busy dealing with domestic surveillance, illegal wiretapping and the destruction of the Constitution, so no time to deal with peace when you are at war at home

raycarey

OK, let's do this point by point, so you don't hurt yourself trying to keep up..

1. the story was reported everywhere....OK, perhaps not at zombieblog, but it was/is a major news story. i'm confident you'll find it even on foxnews.

2. olbermann is my hero?
first of all, i just did a search, and i turns out i've linked to his analysis twice in nearly 4000 posts. not exactly hero worshiping statistics. furthermore, i made that post at midday EST and his program airs during primetime....so how would he have influenced my post?

3. answer sabang's questions in post #43.

pickel

Like it or not Hamas was democratically elected. Americans support democracy, don't they?

Butterfly

actually they don't, Bush wasn't elected either and yet nobody on the world stage complained about that.

blackgang

They will not recognize a govt that does not recognize a sovereign nations rights to exist, and I for 1 do not blame them and should never recognize a terrorist govt. no mater how it was formed or elected.

pickel

Well, the US recognizes Israel and Israel didn't recognize Palestines right to exist, so the hypocracy shines through again.

benbaaa

Yes and, er, no. They support democracies which toe the West's line. Democracies which choose another path tend to get overthrown in military coups. For example, in Iran in 1953, the British persuaded Eisenhower to topple the elected government of Mohammed Mossadegh because he'd nationalized the Iranian oil industry. The Shah (ie the King) was reinstalled as leader and set about crushing all political opposition. That eventually led to the Islamic Revolution in 1979... and the rest we know.

Another inconvenient truth: the seeds of modern Iran's problems today were sown by us when we decided to stamp on a democracy that wouldn't do our bidding.

Source: BBC - Radio 4 - Document

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Milkman

Correct.

There are many in the Israeli government and population, and many Zionists in the US (My old college professor) who don't think the Palestinians should have their own state, let alone, a semi-autonomous one.

And, Benbaa, I was being sarcastic. No, the US does not support true democrcacy. Only pseudo-democratic governments that cater to US interests.

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sabang

Of course the cost of all this is very substantial.
A recent study by the Adva Centre, an independent policy centre in Tel Aviv, makes the continued Occupation and security situation seem even more unsustainable-

"Adva's report said: "The truth is that the conflict with the Palestinians is like a millstone around the neck of Israel: it undermines economic growth, burdens the budget, limits social development, sullies its vision, hangs heavy on its conscience, harms its international standing, exhausts its army, divides it politically, and threatens the future of its existence as a Jewish nation-state."

Adva's figures show Israel's economy grew 43% between 1997 and 2006, well behind world economic growth during that period of 67% and growth of 68% in the US and in the EU.

Although it is almost impossible to calculate an accurate cost of the occupation of the Palestinian territories because much of the defence budget is secret, Adva said that additions to the defence budget to pay for increased military activity in the territories came to 36.6bn shekels between 1989 and 2008.

That amount is greater than the government's budget for elementary, secondary and tertiary education in Israel this year, it said....

Adva said that one in every five Israeli families now ranked as poor, against one in every 10 in the 1970s, which it said was partly a result of the conflict and partly due to the arrival of hundreds of thousands of immigrants from the Soviet Union and Ethiopia who have struggled to find work. Social security payments, particularly child allowances, unemployment compensation and income maintenance, were cut significantly between 2001 and 2005, at least in part because of rising defence costs"

Occupation has cost Israel dear, says report | World news | The Guardian

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Whiteshiva

BM - I asked this question before, but never received an answer - why is it OK to negotiate with North Korea, but not with Hamas? At least the Hamas government was democratically elected.
Tell that to the South Koreans living within reach of North Korean artillery and (now) nuclear weapons! A bit more than a plane-load of hostages there!

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Bugs

I love it when groups tag themselves as "independent". Generally this is an attempt to imply that they are some kind of neutral party, have no agenda, and are not associated with any cause(s) - The Adva Center is anything but. They were formed in the early '90's and they represent the Arab jews, the feminist movement, and "equal rights" for Arab citizens - hardly a neutral party with no agenda.

Sure the situation in Israel is anything but ideal from an economic standpoint, but who says the alternative would have been/ would be any better? Of course that depends on what the alternative turns out to be. Certainly ending the occupation and having a real peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians would be ideal, but simply turning over the occupied territories ain't going to make that happen.

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raycarey

and the posters in issues who ridiculously claim to be 'independent'.

sabang

Well this is quite the most sensible, and productive, noise I have heard emanating from the other side of the Pond with respect to Israel/ Palestine for a long while. Nick Kristoff, the author, take a bow. Obamas wankiness in Israel recently I can only hope will not be replicated when (if) he's in power. Given the Democratic parties usual impotence in taking positive steps towards peace in the Middle East, I'll not hold me breath.

"On his visit to the Middle East, Barack Obama gave ritual affirmations of his support for Israeli policy, but what Israel needs from America isn't more love, but tougher love.

Particularly at a time when Israel seems to be contemplating military strikes on Iranian nuclear sites, the United States would be a better friend if it said: "That's crazy" - while also insisting on a 100 percent freeze on settlements in the West Bank and greater Jerusalem....


Peace-making invariably involves exasperating and intransigent antagonists and unequal steps, just as it did in the decades in which Britain struggled to end terrorism emanating from Northern Ireland.

But London never ordered air strikes on Sinn Fein or walled in Catholic neighborhoods. Over time, Britain's extraordinary restraint slowly changed attitudes so as to make the eventual peace possible.

I hope Obama, as a candidate or as a president, will be a true enough friend of Israel to say all this, warmly but firmly."


Full Article- Tough love for Israel? - International Herald Tribune


Why aren't more people saying this from the USA?
Surely, it is common sense?

Maybe, being a 'proud friend of Israel' needs to be treated as more than just a slogan, and the underlying realities looked at. Thats what Friendship is.