british retreat from basra

**raycarey** · 17-12-2007, 09:19 AM

The great majority of people in Basra were glad to see the British go. " You can see the happiness on the faces of everyone," said Adel Jassam, a teacher. "It feels like a heavy burden has been lifted off our chests. "

A recent BBC poll showed 85 per cent of Basra citizens thought the continuing presence of the British had a detrimental effect on the security of southern Iraq.

Basra, where David Milliband, the foreign secretary, acknowledged Britain was not handing over a "land of milk and honey" to local forces. Or as a British army major put it, we never pretended we were going to hand over a state that resembled Surrey. Both support the view that the British occupation did not make life for Basrawis worse. Major-General Jalil Khalaf, Basra's new police commander, disagrees in an interview today in the Guardian. He said that the British did not foresee the problem of the "double loyalty" of many of the recruits in the Iraqi security forces which they were training. The result is that Britain's departing forces have left him with "militia ... gangsters ... and all the troubles in the world."

Britain bows out of a five-year war it could never have won - Independent Online Edition > Middle East
Harsh lessons of our retreat from Basra | the Daily Mail
Retreat from Basra: the slow death of the Iraq campaign - Independent Online Edition > Middle East
Google News

even though it is a terrible loss of face for the once mighty british empire, it was the appropriate decision...and brown deserves credit for having the courage to do the right thing.
one can only hope that future PMs will have similar courage if/when future US presidents try to cajole them into pre-emptive wars. because make no mistake...without the inclusion of the british, this mess never would have gotten out of the planning stages.

but no one should lose sight of the fact that it's the people of basra who now have to pick up the pieces.

**Spin** · 17-12-2007, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by raycarey

even though it is a terrible loss of face for the once mighty british empire, it was the appropriate decision...and brown deserves credit for having the courage to do the right thing.
one can only hope that future PMs will have similar courage if/when future US presidents try to cajole them into pre-emptive wars. because make no mistake...without the inclusion of the british, this mess never would have gotten out of the planning stages.
but no one should lose sight of the fact that it's the people of basra who now have to pick up the pieces.

No idea what the above says, sentences that dont start with capital letters are not worth reading IMHO.

**raycarey** · 17-12-2007, 10:07 AM

that's a shame.

**keda** · 17-12-2007, 11:36 PM

They'd rather be randomly butchered by Muslims than protected with a view to offering their children a future by Infidels...a bunch of ungrateful inbreds that deserve no more than the islamic tranquility that's heading their way, and hopefully in trumps, at which time no doubt carey et al will be squealing that the Brits turned their backs...

Btw, though some rejoice at the spectacle of Islam at its most rational <splutter> my guess is the commentators are too politically correct to advance the notion of Brit thanks and relief now replacing the years of silent outrage at the sad excuses for humankind at the other end of their sacrifice.

**sabang** · 17-12-2007, 11:48 PM

Diana's lover shunned union

Diana's lover shunned union - World - smh.com.au

"sad excuses for humankind"

Like this Moslem heart surgeon for example keda?

**Texpat** · 17-12-2007, 11:52 PM

I know it's nitpicking, but I wouldn't use the word retreat.

It was a planned re-deployment. Their mission there was finished -- they didn't retreat.

**Boon Mee** · 18-12-2007, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Spin

Originally Posted by raycarey

even though it is a terrible loss of face for the once mighty british empire, it was the appropriate decision...and brown deserves credit for having the courage to do the right thing.
one can only hope that future PMs will have similar courage if/when future US presidents try to cajole them into pre-emptive wars. because make no mistake...without the inclusion of the british, this mess never would have gotten out of the planning stages.
but no one should lose sight of the fact that it's the people of basra who now have to pick up the pieces.

No idea what the above says, sentences that dont start with capital letters are not worth reading IMHO.

That's 'cause ray's a wannabe Ivory Tower TEFLer who thinks it's cool to write w/out caps...

**Hootad Binky** · 18-12-2007, 02:27 AM

The "Memorandum of Understanding" will see reductions to 2,000 or so British troops staying behind to "advise."

Once those soldiers get shot at Britain will eventually withdraw completely.

Major advance for the southern Shia.

**keda** · 18-12-2007, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by sabang

Diana's lover shunned union

Diana's lover shunned union - World - smh.com.au

"sad excuses for humankind"

Like this Moslem heart surgeon for example keda?

No ray, not even a radical like me would suggest that every muslim is a waste of space...btw seeing as you proposed this representative example of Islamic supremacy, perhaps you can also tell us where in Basra he lives.

**Boon Mee** · 18-12-2007, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by Texpat

I know it's nitpicking, but I wouldn't use the word retreat.

It was a planned re-deployment. Their mission there was finished -- they didn't retreat.

Got that right.
As been said, the Brits were outa there as per their operations schedule.

**raycarey** · 18-12-2007, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Texpat

Their mission there was finished -- they didn't retreat.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

the Brits were outa there as per their operations schedule.

laughable.

Originally Posted by keda

No ray,

not my post keda. it seems you're getting obsessed with me again.

**keda** · 18-12-2007, 09:15 AM

hehe crikey you're so right, and there was me thinking I was the second slowest of mind on the board...

**Butterfly** · 18-12-2007, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Texpat

It was a planned re-deployment. Their mission there was finished -- they didn't retreat.

You right, they fled like cowards from their unfinished mission,

It will be worse when Americans shit their pants in the green zone and start falling off from fleeing helicopters,

**raycarey** · 18-12-2007, 09:39 AM

^ like this?

and this canard being put forth by texpat and boon mee that the brits didn't retreat is patently absurd.

Originally Posted by Texpat

planned re-deployment

to where? iraq is a big country with a lot of problems.
save the militarist 'newspeak' for the rubes.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

the Brits were outa there as per their operations schedule.

with the US escalation being forced to wind down (not enough troops), shouldn't the second ranking member of the 'coalition of the willing' send some of their military to baghdad or mosul or falluja.....or wherever the next round of 'whack-a-mole' is to take place?

again, kudos to brown for having the courage to act after seeing the writing on the wall.

**Butterfly** · 18-12-2007, 10:06 AM

The UK troops fleeing Basra is the long awaited acknowledgement of the British government of their failed participation in that ridiculous conflict,

Blair must be feeling like shit now, his legacy will be remembered

**sabang** · 18-12-2007, 10:33 AM

The full scale of the chaos left behind by British forces in Basra was revealed yesterday as the city's police chief described a province in the grip of well-armed militias strong enough to overpower security forces and brutal enough to behead women considered not sufficiently Islamic.

As British forces finally handed over security in Basra province, marking the end of 4½ years of control in southern Iraq, Major General Jalil Khalaf, the new police commander, said the occupation had left him with a situation close to mayhem. "They left me militia, they left me gangsters, and they left me all the troubles in the world," he said in an interview for Guardian Films and ITV.
...

· Basra has become so lawless that in the last three months 45 women have been killed for being "immoral" because they were not fully covered or because they may have given birth outside wedlock;
· The British unintentionally rearmed Shia militias by failing to recognise that Iraqi troops were loyal to more than one authority; · Shia militia are better armed than his men and control Iraq's main port.

UK has left behind murder and chaos, says Basra police chief | Iraq | Guardian Unlimited

**Texpat** · 18-12-2007, 10:53 AM

All in all, a pretty rosy scenario compared to what he had before.

I don't think the US will pull out of Bagdahd in quite the same way. There's a really nice airfield there and I don't think we'll throw the baby out with the bathwater. Unless we can find another regional point of operations. Unlikely. The Iraq government doesn't want foreign military presence gone anyway. They're unable to protect themselves, clearly demonstrated over the past three years.

**Ukan Kizmiaz** · 18-12-2007, 12:04 PM

They left cos they knew that they couldn't win. I heard an 'expert' on the radio yesterday saying that it was generally accepted - tho' not explicitly stated - that Basra was lost a couple of years ago.

**keda** · 18-12-2007, 12:36 PM

Could be part of their long running personality clash, Blair being more go do it and hone the details en route, with Brown generally more pragmatic and preferring to check out the map before setting off.

**Boon Mee** · 18-12-2007, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

All in all, a pretty rosy scenario compared to what he had before.

I don't think the US will pull out of Bagdahd in quite the same way. There's a really nice airfield there and I don't think we'll throw the baby out with the bathwater. Unless we can find another regional point of operations. Unlikely. The Iraq government doesn't want foreign military presence gone anyway. They're unable to protect themselves, clearly demonstrated over the past three years.

Think North/South Korea.
We'll be in Iraq for a loooong time.
Bet on it...

**chinthee** · 18-12-2007, 09:50 PM

^Yup, we ain't leaving for a long time.

**Texpat** · 18-12-2007, 10:34 PM

The difference should be obvious though. Despite mutual hatred for many years, N/S Korea would go months, nay years, without a single shot being fired. In Iraq, it's measured with a stopwatch.

**Hootad Binky** · 19-12-2007, 01:21 AM

Looks like a theocracy is already flourishing and a War on Women has begun in earnest. Dreadful report on the radio this morning (in addition to sabang's post). Civilians paying the highest cost, once again.

Basra women fear militants behind wave of killings

Tuesday, December 4, 2007; 7:40 PM

BASRA, Iraq (Reuters) - Women in Iraq's southern city of Basra are living in fear. More than 40 have been killed and their bodies dumped in the streets in the past five months for behavior deemed un-Islamic, the city's police chief says.

A warning scrawled in red on a wall threatens any woman who wears makeup or appears in public without an Islamic headscarf with dire punishment.

"Whoever disobeys will be punished. God is our witness that we have conveyed this message," it says.

Women in the Shi'ite city are convinced hardline Islamic militants are behind the killings and say they fear going out without a headscarf.

"Some women were killed with their children," Basra police chief, Major-General Abdul-Jalil Khalaf, told Reuters. "One with a six-year-old child, another with an 11-year-old."

Khalaf, who was sent to Iraq's second-largest city in June with a mandate to get tough on criminals, said he did not know who the perpetrators were but vowed to catch them.
Rita Anwar, a 27-year-old Christian, said she was thinking of leaving Basra, or even Iraq, altogether.

"You would not believe that I also wear the headscarf sometimes. It is terrifying to read this graffiti in red threatening murder," she said.

During the long rule of Saddam Hussein, who suppressed Islamists, Iraqi women in urban areas enjoyed some of the most casual dress codes in the Middle East.

Conservative Islamist influences have spread since the U.S.-led invasion removed Saddam in 2003. This has led to stricter interpretations of Islam in many parts of Iraq.

Police in Basra showed Reuters pictures of women whose bodies were found with notes attached, accusing them of adultery and other "honor crimes."

One photo was of Hayat Jassem, 45, found dead with two gunshot wounds in the stomach. Another was of an unidentified woman in her 30s who was found dead and blindfolded.

"The relatives of those killed never report these crimes because they fear scandals or because they fear the threats of those killers," said Khalaf, sitting behind a desk against a backdrop of two large Iraqi flags.

STATE OF FEAR

A group of tribal Shi'ite leaders told Reuters in October that Shi'ite Islamist political parties were imposing strict Islamic rules in southern provinces and using their armed followers to create a state of fear.

The sheikhs, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the conservative attitudes meant that only religious music was now allowed to be played in public places and dancing was forbidden, as was drinking alcohol.

Basra itself has witnessed a turf war between rival Shi'ite groups, including supporters of cleric Moqtada al-Sadr and his Mehdi Army militia, the powerful Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council, and the smaller Fadhila party which controls the governorate.

Hareth al-Athari, an official from Sadr's political movement in Basra, said the movement opposed killing women for wearing un-Islamic attire.

"This is a hideous crime," said the bearded cleric, wearing a black turban and black robe. He said the role of his movement's members was to educate people through written statements or face-to-face talks.

However, several women interviewed by Reuters said Islamic militants -- they did not say who -- were intimidating them, forcing them to cover their hair and bodies.

"A party official who is also a university student came to me and said female students should not attend exams without wearing the headscarves," said one student, who asked not to be identified for fear of reprisals.

"He told me 'God willing there won't be any girl left in the university without wearing a headscarf'."

Khalaf, who has won praise from coalition forces for his efforts to clean up Basra, said investigations were still under way to find those behind the killing of women in the city.
He said assassinations aimed against other groups, such as university professors, had dropped. "Only a few professors (have been killed). But I do not accept even if it was just one," he said.

Asked who could be behind the killing of women, Athari said: "We cannot accuse anybody. But I can say that these gangs are linked to international intelligence agencies."
"Or they are linked to movements that want to accuse the Sadrist trend of this," he said.

Basra women fear militants behind wave of killings - washingtonpost.com

**keda** · 19-12-2007, 07:27 AM

Savages...just be grateful they're guided by the most Compassionate and Merciful.

**raycarey** · 19-12-2007, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by keda

.just be grateful they're guided by the most Compassionate and Merciful.

for some reason i think i've read almost exactly the same post from keda scores of times.

it's not deja vu, but 'keda view'....or perhaps 'keda spew'

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