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  1. #26
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    I'd say it had the exact opposite effect, and introduced a social caste system of grovelling via its use into the language, with those who wish to demonstrate their superiority or contempt avoiding its use.
    well he failed, because thais of all ranks seem to use those words unfailingly.

    i would opine that the caste system was infinitely worse before he, fascist that he was, tried to introduce some civilized behaviour into what was mostly a medieval society.

    i find that those polite participles to be a great leveller when dealing with either those with power over me, such as the police or immigration officials, or with societies lower orders such as taxi drivers, beggars, waitresses and security guards.

    the nature of your original and subsequent post here suggest that you cannot speak thai, so their usage shouldnt really bother you one way or another.
    Last edited by taxexile; 25-05-2017 at 06:17 PM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crestofawave View Post
    We do the first in English all the time- 'Good morning Mr Jones' 'Hello sir/teacher 'etc or by the tones in our voice- simply good manners so what's wrong with keeping that?.
    But it wouldn't be natural to say sir or madam at the end of x% of sentences if you were talking to a neighbour for example, but this is the exact type of scenario when krab and ka will be used, endlessly and IMO superfluously.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immigrunt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by taxexile View Post
    i have no idea.

    maybe before, ones status in society resulted in either complete subservience and bowing and scraping was the norm when dealing with superiors, whilst those of high status had no need to be polite to inferiors and just hurled abuse and contempt.

    the adding of kha and khrap might have been an attempt at evening out the playing field a little and bringing a smidgin of equality into social intercourse.
    I'd say it had the exact opposite effect, and introduced a social caste system of grovelling into the language, with those who wish to demonstrate their superiority or contempt avoiding its use.
    I agree with immigrunt. All the Thais I know who dislike using the polite particles dislike them because it forces them into a position of subservience when talking with certain people.

    I believe the usage of these particles was promulgated in Plaek's Cultural Mandates, "advisories" published in the Royal Gazette which were, in reality, compulsory.
    don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk

  4. #29
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    natural for an english speaker maybe, but why impose your culture on the thai.
    they do it differently.

  5. #30
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    Not imposing, opining and discussing. They do many things differently, and none are above critical analysis from the vantage point of being an alien on the wall.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by taxexile
    tried to introduce some civilized behaviour into what was mostly a medieval society
    You clearly have little knowledge of Thai history. Whatever Thai society may have been like in the 19030s and 1940s it was most definitely not "medieval".

  7. #32
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    I agree with immigrunt. All the Thais I know who dislike using the polite particles dislike them because it forces them into a position of subservience when talking with certain people.

    the only obvious subservience i see in thai social intercourse is the abhorrent wai.

    a high ranker will use those particles to a low ranker just as the low ranker will use them to the high ranker. its probably all done subconsciously anyway. better don tink too mat

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrB0b View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by taxexile
    tried to introduce some civilized behaviour into what was mostly a medieval society
    You clearly have little knowledge of Thai history. Whatever Thai society may have been like in the 19030s and 1940s it was most definitely not "medieval".
    cue long lecture on thai history with links and references.


    oh do stop it bob.

  9. #34
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    his cultural revolution attempted to

    ...... uplift the national spirit and moral code of the nation and instilling progressive tendencies and a newness into Thai life", a series of Cultural Mandates were issued by the government.

    These mandates encouraged that all Thais were to salute the flag in public places, know the new national anthem, and use the Thai language, not regional dialects. People were encouraged to adopt Western, as opposed to traditional, attire. Similarly, people were encouraged to eat with a fork and spoon, rather than with their hands as was customary.

    Phibunsongkhram saw these policies as necessary, in the interest of progressivism, to change Thailand in the minds of foreigners from an undeveloped and barbaric country into a civilised and modernised one.......

    to the outside world, thai society was undeveloped and barbaric, and he sought to change that.

    undeveloped and barbaric = medieval

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by taxexile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrB0b View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by taxexile
    tried to introduce some civilized behaviour into what was mostly a medieval society
    You clearly have little knowledge of Thai history. Whatever Thai society may have been like in the 19030s and 1940s it was most definitely not "medieval".
    cue long lecture on thai history with links and references.


    oh do stop it bob.
    Why? You "opine" based on nothing but ignorance. Do you think that you have a free pass to fictionalise? You may believe in the ignorant nonsense you spew but the facts show you up for an empty-headed loudmouth.

    Given that, it's hardly surprising you dislike links and references so much, I imagine that they are a constant source of embarrassment for you.


    If you post nonsense on a subject I know about then you can damn well count on the fact that I will call you out for being an ignorant poseur.


    Here's a link, for those that are interested. It's to the Royal Gazette.

    :: ราชกิจจานุเบกษา :: ค้นหาราชกิจจานุเบกษา

    If people would like to read Plaek's Cultural Mandates for themselves they can be found by typing รัฐนิยม into the "Title" search field.

    Quote Originally Posted by taxexile
    These mandates encouraged that all Thais were to salute the flag in public places, know the new national anthem, and use the Thai language, not regional dialects. People were encouraged to adopt Western, as opposed to traditional, attire. Similarly, people were encouraged to eat with a fork and spoon, rather than with their hands as was customary.

    Phibunsongkhram saw these policies as necessary, in the interest of progressivism, to change Thailand in the minds of foreigners from an undeveloped and barbaric country into a civilised and modernised one.......

    to the outside world, thai society was undeveloped and barbaric, and he sought to change that.
    The mandates sought to consolidate power to a certain group and to divert the profits of Thai produce and industry to the same group. If you weren't so proudly ignorant you would be aware of the historical, cultural, and social context in which these mandates were devised.
    Last edited by DrB0b; 25-05-2017 at 06:40 PM.

  11. #36
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    the only obvious subservience i see in thai social intercourse is the abhorrent wai.
    There's an awful lot of it encoded in the language, especially in pronouns (you can pack galaxies in the space between ข้าพเจ้า and กู) and particles.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by taxexile
    undeveloped and barbaric = medieval
    What an odd definition of medieval. I certainly wouldn't consider Chartres Cathedral or Geoffrey Chaucer as either undeveloped or barbaric. How sad that you are so divorced from history, lacking any cultural moorings it's no wonder you are so bitter.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immigrunt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestofawave View Post
    We do the first in English all the time- 'Good morning Mr Jones' 'Hello sir/teacher 'etc or by the tones in our voice- simply good manners so what's wrong with keeping that?.
    But it wouldn't be natural to say sir or madam at the end of x% of sentences if you were talking to a neighbour for example, but this is the exact type of scenario when krab and ka will be used, endlessly and IMO superfluously.
    Not really.

  14. #39
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    But it wouldn't be natural to say sir or madam at the end of x% of sentences if you were talking to a neighbour for example,
    In English it wouldn't, in Thai it would. It's surprising that somebody who possess the minimal intelligence necessary to turn on and operate a computer struggles with this, but then Smeg is a constant source of amazement.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrB0b View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Immigrunt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by taxexile View Post
    i have no idea.

    maybe before, ones status in society resulted in either complete subservience and bowing and scraping was the norm when dealing with superiors, whilst those of high status had no need to be polite to inferiors and just hurled abuse and contempt.

    the adding of kha and khrap might have been an attempt at evening out the playing field a little and bringing a smidgin of equality into social intercourse.
    I'd say it had the exact opposite effect, and introduced a social caste system of grovelling into the language, with those who wish to demonstrate their superiority or contempt avoiding its use.
    I agree with immigrunt. All the Thais I know who dislike using the polite particles dislike them because it forces them into a position of subservience when talking with certain people.
    Surely P' and Nong etc, and the whole social hierarchy of age and status do that.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passing Through View Post
    the only obvious subservience i see in thai social intercourse is the abhorrent wai.
    There's an awful lot of it encoded in the language, especially in pronouns (you can pack galaxies in the space between ข้าพเจ้า and กู) and particles.
    Most thais i know have never expressed any dislike of kha or khrap. Never come up in conversation.

    But most of the ones i know would cut their nuts off to have our pronouns.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverna View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrB0b View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Immigrunt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by taxexile View Post
    i have no idea.

    maybe before, ones status in society resulted in either complete subservience and bowing and scraping was the norm when dealing with superiors, whilst those of high status had no need to be polite to inferiors and just hurled abuse and contempt.

    the adding of kha and khrap might have been an attempt at evening out the playing field a little and bringing a smidgin of equality into social intercourse.
    I'd say it had the exact opposite effect, and introduced a social caste system of grovelling into the language, with those who wish to demonstrate their superiority or contempt avoiding its use.
    I agree with immigrunt. All the Thais I know who dislike using the polite particles dislike them because it forces them into a position of subservience when talking with certain people.
    Surely P' and Nong etc, and the whole social hierarchy of age and status do that.

    That too. The whole damn language is designed to keep people in their place. It's all a load of บังคน.

  18. #43
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    I can understand tax's romantic attraction to it. Perhaps he only discovered it later in life, but to a young (not so these days but was when I started learning the lingo in 2002) the krab and ka stuff is tedious, and like Bob says, part of the 'system' of suppression.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immigrunt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Crestofawave View Post
    We do the first in English all the time- 'Good morning Mr Jones' 'Hello sir/teacher 'etc or by the tones in our voice- simply good manners so what's wrong with keeping that?.
    But it wouldn't be natural to say sir or madam at the end of x% of sentences if you were talking to a neighbour for example, but this is the exact type of scenario when krab and ka will be used, endlessly and IMO superfluously.
    Talking to neighbours, after the first greeting, Thais would only be saying khrap or kha at the end of sentences to acknowledge they have heard the neighbour's comments- no different to English's 'yes' 'no' 'ah ha' 'quite' 'yup' etc.
    'A lot of rain last night,'
    'Khrap'(right, yup)

  20. #45
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    ^ Incorrect.

  21. #46
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    It depends on the relationship between the speakers ... and perhaps how polite they want to sound.

  22. #47
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    my wife told me to fuck off today but put kha on the end. kinda softened the blow a tad.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by armstrong View Post
    my wife told me to fuck off today but put kha on the end. kinda softened the blow a tad.

    It was probably this one ฆ่า, or this one ข้า

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by armstrong View Post
    my wife told me to fuck off today but put kha on the end. kinda softened the blow a tad.
    Arai wa na krab?

  25. #50
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    In Myanmar we say 'ba' to make a sentence polite. Crazy,eh?

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